89 replies to this topic

[Tex Arcana]

ECM = There go all my spotting bonuses.
Not liking it so far; Seeing way to many matches with multiple ECM carriers in Pre-mades already.
I played a match last night where I lliterally didn't get a Red Marker the whole match. I saw their Mechs though.
This smells fishy.,
Edit. I just realised that if one wanted to implement something that would drive away a new player; ECM is a good example.
"I'm looking right at the guy and I can't get target lock?!"

Edited by Tex Arcana, 05 December 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[Jabilac]

[color=#959595]I think ECM with its current system is a little too powerful. I think a good counter would be to split the disrupt and cloak abilities up to two separate units. Keep the "cloak" ECM on the current mechs and add an equal number of mechs that can mount the "Disrupt" unit. Give the "Disrupt" unit to Cents, Hunchies, and Dragons.[/color]

[color=#959595]Another idea is to create a linked BAP system. Each BAP equipped Mech that says within 180m of another one would receive a buff to BAP and "cut through" the ECM fog. Two BAP Mech can target different enemies and use Lock On weapons with a lock on time penalty. Both BAP mechs targeting the same enemy allows others to target that enemy with increased lock on time. Three would drop the lock on penalty.[/color]

[zhajin]

The only problem is that is how targeting works now anway, line of sight only. BAP is already so gimped a system like this would also make ECM gimp...

[MavRCK]

I think that the BIGGER THE FONT the better the post. But seriously, some good points.... however, there are too many separate ECM threads - let's combine them please.

Edited by MavRCK, 05 December 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Syllogy]

Jabilac, on 05 December 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

[color=#959595]I think ECM with its current system is a little too powerful. I think a good counter would be to split the disrupt and cloak abilities up to two separate units. Keep the "cloak" ECM on the current mechs and add an equal number of mechs that can mount the "Disrupt" unit. Give the "Disrupt" unit to Cents, Hunchies, and Dragons.[/color]

[color=#959595]Another idea is to create a linked BAP system. Each BAP equipped Mech that says within 180m of another one would receive a buff to BAP and "cut through" the ECM fog. Two BAP Mech can target different enemies and use Lock On weapons with a lock on time penalty. Both BAP mechs targeting the same enemy allows others to target that enemy with increased lock on time. Three would drop the lock on penalty.[/color]

BAP is not an Electronic Counter Measure.

And, since any mech can equip BAP, allowing BAP to negate ECM would make ECM worthless.

The only change that I could support is that BAP would allow your targeting data to "escape" the bubble, so your teammates could see your target. No other effects would be negated though.

[Agent of Change]

Syllogy, on 05 December 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

BAP is not an Electronic Counter Measure.

And, since any mech can equip BAP, allowing BAP to negate ECM would make ECM worthless.

The only change that I could support is that BAP would allow your targeting data to "escape" the bubble, so your teammates could see your target. No other effects would be negated though.

You could work it so that it doesn't negate ECM, It just counters part of it or allows some benefit. your suggestion is a good example and a good suggestion.

I did have another thought that could well allow for ECM to stay largely the same.

Break it into three modes:

• Target Denial - The "cloak effect", target lock and info aquisition slow down
  
• Disruption - Lock prevention only
  
• Counter ECM - counters any other mode on a 1 to 1 basis with piority to the closest Enemy ecm to the countering mech.

Basically take the two most powerful positive uses and forces a choice you can't do both at the same time with one mech.

[General Taskeen]

ECM is a new, unbalanced toy in an its infancy. Other games have much more developed/polished ECM implementation like MW:LL.

[Roughneck45]

Peiper, on 05 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

, just to counteract their special systems.

SSRM lockon is a special system.

Your proposals would make ECM too weak. The reason it is ok in tabletop is because you are rolling dice to do everything, and always have the chance to miss or damage a spot that does not matter.

ECM in its current state encourages the use of skill weapons instead of relying on the lock on weapons.

[General Taskeen]

What makes little sense to me is that something with ECM 800m away does not show up on radar period, unless someone close to them is using ECCM. So, if you are literally staring at someone in LOS, and you aren't under any 180m ECM envelop, you can't use lock-on period. ECM should only work in an 180m, anything outside of that should be able to target it except lock on takes longer. The only time you can target an ECM Mech (if you are without any ECM of your own or your team) is a 20m gap betwen 181m-201m (lulzwhut). That gap should be increased to 181m-600m+.

Edited by General Taskeen, 05 December 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[zigg1]

Peiper, on 05 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Tabletop: If you can SEE it, you can shoot at it. That includes LRM firing. There is no ‘lock on’ in tabletop. You could also fire through trees, over hills at obscured targets, if you could see them.

Tabletop ECM rules: ‘A Gaurdian (ECM) system nullifies the effect of any enemy Beagle active probe, Artemis FCS, NARC missile beacon, or C3 computer, when that system is within 6 hexes of a Guardian (ECM) equipped unit. (NOTE: TAG does not exist.) - FASA 1640 BT Compendium

Why is ECM broken?

ECM is broken because it PREVENTS you from firing (locking on) with LRM’s, and from targeting an enemy unit you can SEE. In tabletop, you can still - using your gunnery skill - fire your weapons at enemies without penalty against ECM equipped units. You just didn’t get the BONUS for Artemis, NARC, etc…

ECM also prevents the labeling of targets, this is too much.

PROPOSAL:
To fix ECM, I propose that all ECM does is counteract the other electronics packages out there.
It was never meant to act like it does right now in the game. It wasn’t meant to cripple the other mechwarriors, just to counteract their special systems.


Also, the targeted ECM ability, to use and target a particular enemy mech and knock out their targeting, I can see that. However, it should be a different piece of gear, similar to TAG or a NARC beacon, that scouts can use to blind/jam an enemy mech’s sensors. Call it a Jammer Pod.

the problem is they have thrown the rules out the window they don't give a **** about the rules they are making their game their way. its lame i'd rather play the hasbro version of mechwarrior. this is a game with alot of promise if they followed the rules . i make sure all my friends that love mechwarrior and still play battletech to avoid this like the plague. maybe if they fix the BS and actually start using the rules it might be decent.

[Monky]

Posting this here since my thread got lost in the burgeoning swarm of ECM topics


Here are some suggestions for ECM

1. Remove Atlas D-DC ECM capability

Reasoning - the Atlas is a team-anchor. Countering his ECM means certain death as the majority of his team's firepower is right there with him. Even better is the possibility of multiple D-DC, great fun to run into I assure you. I think it's safe to say ECM on a heavy or assault platform is probably a bad idea.

2. Add ECM to all variants of any chassis that is equipped with them (all commando, raven, cicada).

Reasoning - You will only see variants used to master the ECM capable chassis until majority of the players have it mastered. ECM is the most powerful 1.5 tons out there. After these chassis are mastered, the only ones that will be truly viable will be the ones equipping ECM.

3. Alter the way ECM works - drop the 'no locking enemies in an enemy ECM bubble, allow ECM to counter all missile enhancing addons such as Artemis, TAG, NARC, allow ECM to increase lockon and loadout info gathering time by 100% while their friendlies are covered by it. Alter friendly ECM's effect on enemies when they are within the bubble to prevent communication of enemies within your ECM bubble via lockon sharing (IE - lockons only show for them, not for their friendlies, and vice versa - information blackout is what ECM is about.

Reasoning - ECM should not be able to disrupt target people that are under it's umbrella, it is too essential a game mechanic. They should however be able to cut people off from their team's info grid, isolating and disrupting teamwork (removing target indicators like the A, B, C indicators etc so it is harder to coordinate fire as well while the player is within range of the enemy ECM). This is while the enemy is in range of the ECM. When FRIENDLIES are in range of ECM, targeting times against them are doubled, as well as the info sniffing to gather what items they have equipped. BAP of course is disabled by it, but TAG, NARC, and Artemis should be too.

Essentially, ECM should be altered from a 'game changer' to a 'neat tool that can counter certain things'. Also, BAP needs some serious buffs, like near instant info gathering, able to detect powered down mechs no matter what, able to spot at any range etc, to be comparable to the ECM.

(TLDR)
- Remove ECM from non-scout chassis
- Add ECM to all variants within ECM capable chassis
- ECM's defensive abilities should be this; increases lock on and info gathering time by 100%, disable benefits of Artemis, TAG, NARC, BAP against friendlies in the 'field of coverage'.
- ECM's offensive abilities should be this; removes 'target indicators' aka the A, B, C indicators, from view for any mech within the ECM field, increases their lockon time and info gathering time by 100% against all targets (not stacking with defensive bonus), and prevent info sharing between them and their teammates - lockons can only be provided by their onboard computer and they can't provide info to teammates.

[Peiper]

Well thought out, Monky. Thanks!

[Camulos]

Ciel Noir, on 05 December 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

I actually like the way ECM is going. But, I would prefer the TAG and NARC would work as a further counter to ECM and not the other way around. This would give spotter/LRM a tandem and would give LOS targetting another advantage. While, I might add, still making it hard for streakapults to do their jobs against lights.


I think of TAG as laser targetting, which IRL is not affected by radar jamming. Also, it's hard enough to keep TAG while taking fire. So, I propose that it retains it's advantages, including decresed lock-on time and reduced missile spread.

NARC on the other hand, is very limited. So these disadvantages should still make it viable counter to ECM.


tl;dr: TAG and NARC to light up a mech regardless of jamming.

Edit: to elaborate

This......... fix NARC, make TAG immune to ECM, keep working on fixing the crash/graphical bugs, and bring back tripping and it will improve the playability of this game by a tremendous amount.

[Dentash]

Support

[Goreshade]

Peiper, on 05 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

1. Why is ECM broken?

2. ECM is broken because it PREVENTS you from firing (locking on) with LRM’s, and from targeting an enemy unit you can SEE. In tabletop, you can still - using your gunnery skill - fire your weapons at enemies without penalty against ECM equipped units. You just didn’t get the BONUS for Artemis, NARC, etc…

3. ECM also prevents the labeling of targets, this is too much.

1. ECM isn't broken,it just needs balancing. It doesn't need to be made exactly like the tabletop, converting it from TT to real time FPS is a completely different animal.

2. Who cares if its not allowing you to lock on, its not preventing you from manually firing your LRMs at a pin point location. I've seen many gamers adapt and aim directly at the mechs or near them to still get missle strikes. You deal less damage, but you have to aim instead of depending on a lock.
Streaks on the other hand got the shaft, I think they should fire normally like SRM-2's and with the lock they should home in on the target.

3. I agree they still need some sort of targeting that allows you to label a mech, that way you can call targets for focusing. Also they need to allow NARC missle beacon to work and have a longer duration then 15 seconds, more like 20 to 30 seconds. Both TAG and NARC should allow LRMs and Streaks to lock on to ECM mechs or mechs in the bubble.

4. You should of added a 4th bro, cause ECM should only be limited to a few varients. That way it would be easier to call out mechs carrying ECM, then you can call out and focus that ECM bastage down. They shouldn't allow the ECM on the atlas D-DC, it should be on lights and mediums only. I heard PGI may open up ECM to all mechs, correct me if I'm wrong. But regardless, ECM shouldn't even be an option for assaults or heavies right now, not until later on in the timeline, like the awesome 9Q.

That would fix your so called broken ECM or you can hop in a BA mech and turn them into a pile a hot slag.

Edited by Goreshade, 06 December 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[GIJOEHoS]

ECM needs to be set to do what is time lined for it.

[Ciel Noir]

Syllogy, on 05 December 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

As an Atlas pilot, I have a few perspectives to add.

Before the patch, I ran an LRM Atlas (2 LRM 20's) and averaged 500-1000dmg per game, with only 1 other missile boat and a scout that didn't run up and die, I rarely lost a match. The effect was the same whether I was in a Catapult or Awesome.

Now that ECM has been implemented, it has forced me to change my build into a mech that can engage across multiple ranges.

From what I have seen, it effectively encourages balanced (and varied) builds, teamwork, and diversity to overcome.

4 matches last night saw my team running against 6-8 ECM mechs vs. 2-3 ECM mechs on our team.

We crushed the competition. ECM Atlas' are the focus of the fight. The flocks of Ravens, Commandos, and Cicadas are combat effective, but still no match for a few heavily armed Heavy / Assault mechs that are paying attention.

Below is what I have noticed about ECM, which is why I believe that it is working as intended.

1: This effectively eliminates LRM-heavy auto-wins and discourages heavy streak cats.

2: This does not prevent LRM's from being effective when the target is in Line Of Sight, even without target tracking.

3: ECM does not create an auto-win just because 1 team has more ECM's than the other.

4: Most engagements occur within 100m - 500m anyway, which means that ECM encourages Direct-Fire builds.

5: Since there are only 4 variants that support ECM, ECM is not over-employed.

6: ECM does not prevent the use of TAG-enabled spotting.

7: LRM's are now support weapons as intended instead of the primary source of damage that they were pre-patch.

8: By only allowing ECM mechs to counter other ECM mechs, ECM is not a cast aside worthless mechanic brought to you by BAP equipped mechs.

Thank you! Honestly, the only ones seemingly hurt with the ECM are the PUG streakapults. I say this because I have been in a few games where an opponent used an ECM/streakapult tandem, and it worked quite well I might add. One might even say, it strengthens the class warfare even more. Now, you NEED to depend on the electronics.

[Peiper]

100 total votes! Cool! PERFECT percentages!

At least for the moment...

[Solidussnake]

I don't support this. This is not a Table top game. ECM is fine as is.

[Edahs]

The implementation of the ECM is not over the top at all. It has allowed for a much better balance of tactics and eliminated the routine dependance of LRM boating to win battles. The limited platforms which can carry the ECM prevent overuse which would nullify the need for Countermeasures. TAG systems now serve a purpose in the game and increase the tools available for group tactics. I do believe that the TAG lasers should not have a range limitation as they are simple lasers for painting targets and hold no damage capability. They would still be dependent on the range of the missiles fired by a seperate platform and require line of site. In the same way, STREAK systems should not be affected by ECM as they work on the same principle as a TAG system and require a laser to paint the target which is what the missile tracking systems actually follows.