253 replies to this topic

[TruePoindexter]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I would also like to say that, as a player who defaults to 'support' actions, a single Jenner/Cicada can pretty much ruin any Raven that 'walks up' to a Catapults day.

I can confirm that a 6ML Cicada 2A or 4ML AC2 Cicada 3M can handily crush a Raven. There's this thing called armor and firepower that just tends to be a bit higher on one of the sides of the equation.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 05 December 2012 - 10:50 AM.

[Felix]

Jetfire, on 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

So you bought the closed beta version of the game, not the vision for the future? Because ECM and its essential implementation makes logical sense given what it is. E-warfare is a part of the game by design. Balances are shifting and team role warfare is the eventual goal. Don't want to run ECM... try ballistics, lasers and SRM's. Want to run LRM's or streaks, you'll need assistance and you probably still won't want to boat anymore. Boating lock on weapons now has a serious downside, that is balance.

I bought in when things were looking up, when the devs didnt have their head up their collective rears.

And you know, ECM I would be fine with, dont allow targeting data? sure, increse lock on times sure? but to make an entire team invisible and not allow lock ons AT ALL even with LOS an d with how slow the things move as is? AND have the thing that negates two weapon systems with 1.5 tons, and 2 crits be ITSELF?

That is a massively stupid design decision.

And my secondary mech is a laser/AC mech, and I am just as good as it as I am with my founders cat, but that doesnt mean I dont see how stupid the devs are when they negate a whole playstyle just because they dont understand what the hell they are doing.

[verybad]

Fate 6, on 05 December 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

If you have been avoiding using LRMs then you don't know that they aren't easy-mode press the button to win weapons. You needed coordination even before ECM was introduced. It was hard enough to get a lock and hold it. And that's still assuming the person you are targeting isn't just going to walk behind a building or large hill.

I consistently provided forward targetting and defense of our own LRM boats. I'm familiar with the coordination, many LRM boat drivers didn't coordinate however, they simply found a niche and pressed fire. LRM boats have still been putting up big numbers in terms of damage either way. Now it will take a bit more thought. The good players/teams will get good at that, the ones that just want to keep their finger on the fire button will lose.

[Jman5]

Quote

No, I think he resents having a 1.5 ton piece of equipment invalidate two entire weapons platforms

Funny because I was thinking the same thing about a 1.5 ton weapon called the Streak SRM 2 a week ago.

[Tuku]

To compeely negate a 35 ton raven all one has to do is equip some lasers to their missile boat or work very closely with the other lone wolves or your premade team to keep those pesky lights off you . ECM is there to hide you and your friends....You get a streak mando with ECM to run counter and obliterate the raven and it is no longer an issue.

[Fate 6]

Jetfire, on 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

So you bought the closed beta version of the game, not the vision for the future? Because ECM and its essential implementation makes logical sense given what it is. E-warfare is a part of the game by design. Balances are shifting and team role warfare is the eventual goal. Don't want to run ECM... try ballistics, lasers and SRM's. Want to run LRM's or streaks, you'll need assistance and you probably still won't want to boat anymore. Boating lock on weapons now has a serious downside, that is balance.

You clearly don't understand the situation, so you should probably leave this thread. There is a mech in the game, know as the Catapult, that is designed to "boat" missiles. ECM would have been balanced if it had been similar to the TT version. The ECM in the game right now makes lock-on missiles non-functional. That's not balance. Oh, I should play around it? Sorry, I launched into a game by myself and I have no ECM or energy slots in my mech. How do I play around it if I'm not lucky enough to get teammates that do have ECM+TAG? Right, I don't. I simply sit there not being able to fire my weapons. Seems balanced.

verybad, on 05 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Not really, there's no problem related to ECM for the weapons I use the most (UAC-5s and Large Lasers).

I just think it's funny that this weapon that has a huge advantage (indirect fire) can't always be used for that without coordination with other players now and people that have been racking up lots of points with LRM boats or SSRM2 Cats in the past are now crying about this.

For a direct fire speciallist like myself, these are the good days. I have a TAG on ALL my builds (and have since TAG was available) because I enjoy supporting my team, though I'll have to see how many people are boating LRMs this weekend.

Seems like Jenners should now be specializing in killing Ravens however. Kill the Ravens that are doing aggressive ECM coverage, then TAG the Atlases that are providing defensive ECM support..The Jenner can provide these services with a smile.
It's a better one on one fighter than the Raven (so scout killing) and it's fast enough to provide good tag support in order to take out Atlas ECM support. Sure it's a new level of tactics involved, So what, the challenge is exhiliarating.

That Raven has 2 SSRMs and 2 MLas. You have 4 MLas. Have fun.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

See my above reply. 1 mech taking 2 others out of a battle without firing a shot is not balance.

We could argue all day about whether this represents balance. The point I'll make is that having LRM boats that are so limited that they carry no other useful weapon systems is an intrinsic tactical failure. Support mechs also need to be supported in turn by brawler mechs. Wandering off hundreds of metres from the main battle positively invites the problem you initially described.

This is an incredibly team-focused game. Mutual support is the way to play. Balanced chassis designs along with proper team work remains effective, as do properly utilised LRM support mechs. ECM is fine - adjust team tactics to suit rather than merely complaining.

[Sevaradan]

not to mention a few tons more armor...

[Bloodscourge]

Soooo get a teammate with ECM to counter, or run a mech that can counter with its own ECM. Also LRM's can be used to direct fire, its not optimal but it works. Keep TAG ready for mechs as they close. And a Beagle probe to boost sensors.

[Harrison Kelly]

Jman5, on 05 December 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Funny because I was thinking the same thing about a 1.5 ton weapon called the Streak SRM 2 a week ago.

That's a silly argument. 2 weeks ago, Streaks didn't invalidate any weapons option other than ones that nobody ran anyway (think Flamers, Machine Guns, AC 10s). You still saw the full range of close-in weapons: Lasers, Pulse Lasers, SRM 6s, AC20s, AC2, AC5, UAC5s, even Gauss along with Streaks. The presence of Streaks didn't make you say "Wow, I've got to take all my SRM6s off right now." There were more Catapult A1s with Streaks for sure, but the presence of Streaks didn't automatically make a bunch of weapons wasted tonnage, and the presence of one Streak launcher certainly didn't invalidate an entire class of weapons.

That is not the case with ECM, but nice try with the red herring.

Bloodscourge, on 05 December 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Soooo get a teammate with ECM to counter, or run a mech that can counter with its own ECM. Also LRM's can be used to direct fire, its not optimal but it works. Keep TAG ready for mechs as they close. And a Beagle probe to boost sensors.

So the only counter to ECM is . . . another ECM. Seems legit.

Edited by Harrison Kelly, 05 December 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[verybad]

Here's what I would do if I were making a Premade size 4 team.

Raven (ECM, TAG) 360 module for good forward targetting. Weaponry second to speed.
Cat C1 2 LRM-15Artemis, 3 ML, 1 TAG (Close to standard) LRM Support
Atlas DC (ECM) Weapons to taste (something that can work well with the C1) Probably some LRM, some Large Lasers, and a Gauss TAG
Hunchie or Cataphract for trooping (multiple roles, including medium fire, pinning, and finnishing off targets. TAG

I think ECM is a bit narrow in terms of the mechs that can carry it, but it's also going to lead to more balanced overall play (IMO! )

[One Medic Army]

Use SRMs.
I'm not sorry someone is taking advantage of the giant glaring weakness of only having 1 weapons system.

Welcome to where everyone else is.

[Dukov Nook]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Or, and stay with me here, you put on four medium lasers and 2 LRM 15's with artemis.

Also there's a non tech item that completely negates laser damage - we call it a 'hill' and you can stand behind it and fire LRMs right over it

That's nice. What am I firing the LRMS at?

Definitely not a mech. I can't get a lock because of the damn troll raven sitting on my heels.

[Bguk]

Critical Fumble, on 05 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Amazingly enough, condescension isn't very persuasive. I wasn't saying ECM is god mode, I wasn't saying that you can't kill them, I said that it removes the only in game intel sharing mechanics, and that that PART of it is too much.

Yeah, I try not to be, it's hard not to when reading things at times.

[Harrison Kelly]

One Medic Army, on 05 December 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Use SRMs.
I'm not sorry someone is taking advantage of the giant glaring weakness of only having 1 weapons system.

Welcome to where everyone else is.

I don't get this at all. There are some Mechs that only have 1 type of hardpoint (Cat-A1, some Jenner variants). This was your option on the A1 prior to the patch.
1) Run all/mostly SRMs, probably SRM 6s.
2) Run all/mostly LRMs, either 15s or 20s.
3) Run all/mostly Strk SRM 2s.
4) Run a mix of LRMs and Strks
5) Run a mix of LRMs and SRMs
6) Run a mix of SRMs and Strks

As of this patch, those options were reduced to just #1 in 8v8 play.

How is reducing your build options from 3-6 builds on a Mech variant by introducing a single piece of 1.5 ton equipment good for the game? How would you like someone to build the A1? How is making 2 classes of weapons dead weight on most of the Mechs that can carry them good for the game?

Ease up on the myopia, people.

Edited by Harrison Kelly, 05 December 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Dukov Nook]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 December 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

wow. Now that just sounded petulant. The whole point of ECM is to screw up computer, communications and such. Since neither ballistics nor lasers use them, they are not affected. On the other hand, since both are LOS ONLY, you a) need more than your scout looking at an opponent to hit them. Have to expose yourself to enemy fire to shoot them, they already have their counters in play.

You are starting to sound like you belong to a group that bought whole hog into the LRM/Streak mentaliity, and now resent having to adapt to more balanced tactics. Haven't played against you since the patch to the best of my knowledge, but for a group that prides itself on "it's real world military experience", you sound like a group that fell into the gamers min/max mindset. With all that military background, I would think tactics to be a forte.

Feel free to drop against us and let us know if your opinion still stands.

[Kaldor]

Grraarrgghh, on 05 December 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

And LRMs are what, hard mode?

Grraarrgghh, on 05 December 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

What skill is that? Keeping a targeting reticule in a box for 2 seconds?

I'd say that's equally simple (if not more simple) that getting through an enemies firing line, avoiding getting shot, and sidling up to a mech twice your size.

This must be one of those that get angry when killed by LRMs. The levels of knowledge here are undeniable!

LRMs take more team work than a direct fire build. They are easy to fire, but are much harder to make them effective without a spotter. However, you have a spotter with TAG, they are evil, as they should be. And you need to hold your target the entire time the missiles are in flight or they go to last known position, and likely miss.

TLDR version: Effective LRM boating is more difficult than it appears.

bug3at3r, on 05 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

WAAAAAAAAAAH, they took away my EZ mode lock-on mech....

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Genius!!!

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Or, and stay with me here, you put on four medium lasers and 2 LRM 15's with artemis.

Also there's a non tech item that completely negates laser damage - we call it a 'hill' and you can stand behind it and fire LRMs right over it

Epic trolling

[Dukov Nook]

One Medic Army, on 05 December 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Use SRMs.
I'm not sorry someone is taking advantage of the giant glaring weakness of only having 1 weapons system.

Welcome to where everyone else is.

So, then we should just remove LRMS and SSRMs from the game then.

Yes, this is what you are saying here.

[One Medic Army]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

That's nice. What am I firing the LRMS at?

Definitely not a mech. I can't get a lock because of the damn troll raven sitting on my heels.

You, like many other mechs, use your pew pews to scare off the raven, and then continue firing your big hurty things at your leisure.

Look, mechs with varied load outs (read more than 1 type of weapons system) frequently engage enemies where not all of their weapons are effective. They don't complain about not being effective with their AC/5s against light mechs, they just use a different weapons system and then fire the AC/5 at something else afterwards.

Not all weapons are effective at all times, this is where non-missile users are every day. Stop complaining for being lowered to the same level as everyone else.

Edited by One Medic Army, 05 December 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Viper69]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

That's nice. What am I firing the LRMS at?

Definitely not a mech. I can't get a lock because of the damn troll raven sitting on my heels.

You cant get a lock because the enemy mechs sitting in another ECM field. The ECM at your feet should not disrupt your long range targeting of non shielded mechs. He is just too close for you to shoot with your LRMs. Now if I am mistaken and the raven at your heels is in fact disrupting your long range targeting that should not be how it works. I think the enemy was being blocked by a second ECM probably an Atlas.