253 replies to this topic

[Ricama]

aspect, on 05 December 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

It'll stop soon, I hope.

My impression of the ECM feedback: "ECM is unbalanced because the enemy team had more ECM's than my team did!"

When you need more of a specific item than your opponent to win that's kinda the definition of OP.

[Grraarrgghh]

Ricama, on 05 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

When you need more of a specific item than your opponent to win that's kinda the definition of OP.

Skill is OP.

Edited by Grraarrgghh, 05 December 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Bguk]

Harrison Kelly, on 05 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Okay, so riddle me this. Since the patch, every single 8v8 drop I've done has had multiple ECM Mechs. Talking 3+, which according to your logic means that "you can't use LRMs because a ECM mech is near."

Now, I run a TAG laser on my Catapult, but if the only time I ever get to fire LRMs is within 450 meters of an enemy Mech and dependent on keeping TAG lock (or someone else is within 450 meters of an enemy Mech and holds a TAG lock), I'm not going to get to fire much. I'm not going to be able to take advantage of the range of LRMs. A1s can't mount a TAG anyway, so that's out.

So again, the builds come down to #2: All SRMs. You pointed out that 3 and 4 aren't good without an ECM advantage, and unreliable generally equals bad. #6 is bad, agreed. #5 without being able to fire LRMs at 500+ meters reliably seems inferior to #2.

Is there a scenario without a guaranteed ECM advantage where it's worth it to bring LRMs or Streaks on an A1? If the answer is yes, I'm curious as to what that would be. If the answer is no, then we're back to Build #2. All SRMs.

So what you're looking for is a way for LRMs to work all the time? They won't. Just like my MLAS won't work if the target is 900m away from me.

[CSPshala]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

THIS ONE POST WILL PRIORITIZE FIXING ECM

I think you're thinking too highly of your opinion.

[Harrison Kelly]

Grraarrgghh, on 05 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Skill is OP.

So is teamwork.

I don't personally define skill by the ability to add a 1.5 ton item to a specific build and then run as many of them as possible in a drop, though.

Bguk, on 05 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

So what you're looking for is a way for LRMs to work all the time? They won't. Just like my MLAS won't work if the target is 900m away from me.

No, what I'm looking for is a way for LRMs to work at all beyond 450 meters without a guaranteed ECM advantage or a TAG lock. The medium laser is effective within its range. There's no . . . I dunno, Reflective Armor that reduces your laser damage/second to 75% and the range by 50% while requiring a special 1 ton, 1 slot capacitor to even get a hit off. And this Reflective Armor doesn't have to be on your target, it can be on an enemy Mech within 180 meters of your target to this effect. That is essentially what ECM does. It reduces the range to 50% and the lock time increase lowers your DPS.

Now somehow, it's fair to do that to LRMs, but there'd be mass outcry is something equivalent to a 25% damage decrease and 50% range decrease was given to lasers. That's what I don't understand.

I'd like to be able to fire LRMs near their max effective range, yes. That's the point of LRMs. If the only time you can use LRMs without a guaranteed ECM advantage is within 450 meters with a TAG lock, then they're not worth taking. And that's from someone who LOVES TAG.

Edited by Harrison Kelly, 05 December 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Harrison Kelly, on 05 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I don't personally define skill by the ability to add a 1.5 ton item to a specific build and then run as many of them as possible in a drop, though.

Well premade 8 v 8 matches have no matching so persumably they will counter with coordination.

If everyone is running an ECM mech on a team they are all in Commandos/Ravens/Cicadas/Atlas's. Commandos are fragile as hell, Ravens are under armed, Cicada's are jumpless Jenners that trade their two missile slots for a ballistic with mixed results, and we all know about the weaknesses of the Atlas. There's a fair amount of compromise there.

[Arcadian Xero]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

To completely negate a 65 ton Catapult or other missile boat, all a 35 ton ECM equipped raven needs to do is anklebite the opposing mech.

Period. A shot never has to be fired.

As the raven ankle bites the poor cat, negating 90% of his damage capabilities, essentially taking him out of the fight without any use of skill since an ECM raven can approach, in plain site, a LRM cat without worry (pssh, that cat has 2 medium lasers. THE HORROR)... and then simply circle him to keep his ability to lock 100% negated. 'But what about the main group. they no longer have ECM protection'...

Now that the LRMS are negated, all you have to worry about is streak cats. Focused fire fixes that. Once the main unit is down, the core body simply moves into the direction of the neutered LRM boat/boats to destroy at will.

the most basic tactic requiring less skill than a streak cat. Sure, it's a similar tactic as in the past, except in the past, your harassing mech had to work LOS to get close to the LRMs, and was typically a Medium. Now, the smallest mech can do it in plain site without even so much as a worry. Once the main group is engaged, this tactic is easy mode.

It breaks balance. The only counter is to stack support on your LRMs, or not take LRMS, which pulls off from the main body. Not a feasible option.

ECM has value, but by leaving Radar broken in it's pre-ecm state, it's given more value. ECMs will need an adjustment in their current state, or Radar will need to work more like it's real world component and allow for more than just 'LOS' tactical display.

Mmmm yes, feed me more of your delicious tears!

In all seriousness though, ECM is OP right now because it is shiny and new, and everyone is using mechs that have ECM. Everyone is still working out how they want to use them, and just how good they work, and how to counter them. In time even those silly pubbies will start to figure things out.

As it is my team runs 3 ECM mechs, 1 for permanent disruption to cover our brawlers and the other 2 alternate between counter and diruption as needed. All of our scouts carry TAG to deal with ECM off in the distance. Now we no longer have to worry about enemy ECM or ever being detected. We even run a streak cat and he isn't useless at all.

Now before everyone starts crying about how we are premade and team work is easy for us blah blah blah... Well let me stop you right there. This whole imbalance you are seeing in the game right now? It is because there is a distinct lack of communication amongst public only players, and that falls on ALL of their own heads and has NOTHING to do with game balance. ECM comes with pre-built in counter measures, as well as outside counter measures like TAG and direct fire weapons. The reason you don't get this kind of support is lack of communication and teamwork.

A few things would alleviate this problem. For starters you could join a group. And for those of you pubbies who are scared of social interaction, a built in VOIP would be EXTREMELY helpful. At least then when that ECM Raven is ripping you to shreds and you are left helpless you could at least say something. And lastly the most helpful thing would be PRE-GAME LOBBIES. That way you can all figure out what you are bringing before you even drop and that way when you all fail miserably or stomp the enemy it can't be blamed on functioning game mechanics you feel are OP.

[Viper69]

Harrison Kelly, on 05 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

So is teamwork.

I don't personally define skill by the ability to add a 1.5 ton item to a specific build and then run as many of them as possible in a drop, though.

No but it is smarter to have more and or use them more effectively is it not? If you only have one ECM you can counter or scramble. If you have two you can do both, if you have 4 you can have overlapping zones of coverage. So there is a point where tactics and intelligence merge nicely with equipment.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

ECM is fine. If you really need to Nerf it then just not require a energy slot for Tag, problem solved.

[Viper69]

ECM cannot block the Mk1 Eyeball and direct fire weaponry.

[Flawless]

ECM is the best thing that happened to MWO.

[Harrison Kelly]

Viper69, on 05 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

No but it is smarter to have more and or use them more effectively is it not? If you only have one ECM you can counter or scramble. If you have two you can do both, if you have 4 you can have overlapping zones of coverage. So there is a point where tactics and intelligence merge nicely with equipment.

Absolutely. Right now, it is ideal to run 4+ ECMs in an 8-man drop and the people who have figured this out are doing it. This is about what I'm seeing on a typical drop right now
2-3 Atlas D-DCs that basically act as drop shepherds and provide permanent ECM bubbles for the main group
1-2 heavy mechs, usually Catapults (SRM 6 boats, K2s) or some AC-loaded Cataphract. These guys go with the Atlases
Then there's another lance-ish of Cicadas and Ravens, maybe a Commando, that all run ECM and either roam around the map, or they are with the main group.

This setup 1) works and 2) has enough ECM that the only way to use missile weapons against it is to have an equal number of ECM. That's IMBA, IMO, when the only counter to something is to have more of it. It's hard to deal with and it works. I don't fault people for running it--like you said, it's the smart choice. I blame the devs for making ECM-heavy loadouts THE smartest choice.

[Tactical Error]

all the tears be so delicious...

[Viper69]

Harrison Kelly, on 05 December 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Absolutely. Right now, it is ideal to run 4+ ECMs in an 8-man drop and the people who have figured this out are doing it. This is about what I'm seeing on a typical drop right now
2-3 Atlas D-DCs that basically act as drop shepherds and provide permanent ECM bubbles for the main group
1-2 heavy mechs, usually Catapults (SRM 6 boats, K2s) or some AC-loaded Cataphract. These guys go with the Atlases
Then there's another lance-ish of Cicadas and Ravens, maybe a Commando, that all run ECM and either roam around the map, or they are with the main group.

This setup 1) works and 2) has enough ECM that the only way to use missile weapons against it is to have an equal number of ECM. That's IMBA, IMO, when the only counter to something is to have more of it. It's hard to deal with and it works. I don't fault people for running it--like you said, it's the smart choice. I blame the devs for making ECM-heavy loadouts THE smartest choice.

I gotcha. I personally dont have an ECM mech because I cant quite afford it yet. I am usually a late adopter that gets on board after something is changed.

[Karl Split]

I don't get this thread my founder's cat with 2 LRM 15's and 4 med pulse lasers works fine against the new ecm mechanics....

ohh wait maybe its because I actually fit mixed weapon systems so I can react to changing circumstances on the battlefield, just saying...

[Azzura]

[thorglen]

Does it bother anyone else that out community manager is participating in this argument rather than merge,lock, or hell even ignoring it ??? the fact that a Pgi staff member who's job is at least in part to relay our concerns to the devs has taken sides on this issue before we have had any kind of official response is disturbing.

[Garth Erlam]

Harrison Kelly, on 05 December 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Absolutely. Right now, it is ideal to run 4+ ECMs in an 8-man drop and the people who have figured this out are doing it. This is about what I'm seeing on a typical drop right now
2-3 Atlas D-DCs that basically act as drop shepherds and provide permanent ECM bubbles for the main group
1-2 heavy mechs, usually Catapults (SRM 6 boats, K2s) or some AC-loaded Cataphract. These guys go with the Atlases
Then there's another lance-ish of Cicadas and Ravens, maybe a Commando, that all run ECM and either roam around the map, or they are with the main group.

This setup 1) works and 2) has enough ECM that the only way to use missile weapons against it is to have an equal number of ECM. That's IMBA, IMO, when the only counter to something is to have more of it. It's hard to deal with and it works. I don't fault people for running it--like you said, it's the smart choice. I blame the devs for making ECM-heavy loadouts THE smartest choice.

Holy crap, how many LRM boats are 8 person teams facing? FOUR Mechs, an entire lance/half a team, using variants solely to block missiles?

Time to nerf LRM's to the GROUND.

[Jonnara]

Grraarrgghh, on 05 December 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

So basically your terrible snowflake LRM boat is now somehow worse than it already was?

Oh the humanity! Someone save the LRM boaters from their hell of having to run mechs that aim at stuff!

Try aim at stuff with the latency from Australia.... than tell me LRMs are not our only option.

[soarra]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

LRMs require more skill than just walk up to another mech and negate it's utilization 100% without doing anything else.

yes because that 1 button you have to push is hard.
THe counter to ECM is TEAMWORK, tag,communication not too hard.
Take out ecm mech, have a light tag him, have backup weapons besides lrms.