253 replies to this topic

[Azzura]

Jonnara, on 05 December 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Try aim at stuff with the latency from Australia.... than tell me LRMs are not our only option.

Umm I am in NZ playing a brawler..had 2 games with 6 kills (lastnight). Not one lrm was fired by me.

Edited by Azzura, 05 December 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Smeghead87]

Just played a pug game, my team had no ECM, their team had two. My team won.

[Comassion]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Holy crap, how many LRM boats are 8 person teams facing? FOUR Mechs, an entire lance/half a team, using variants solely to block missiles?

Time to nerf LRM's to the GROUND.

People are running ECM because it gives you great benefits against being targeted, which makes it difficult to focus fire on your 'mechs and allows you to approach the enemy without being detected. Making you immune to LRMs and SSRMS is a great side benefit. If you removed the LRM entirely, people would still be running a lot of ECM 'mechs for the above reasons.

[Kilgore]

Smeghead87, on 05 December 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Just played a pug game, my team had no ECM, their team had two. My team won.

Do you think the lack of cooperation on the part of a group with ECM negates the benefits of ECM?

[Kyrie]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Holy crap, how many LRM boats are 8 person teams facing? FOUR Mechs, an entire lance/half a team, using variants solely to block missiles?

Time to nerf LRM's to the GROUND.

In fairness, its not just LRMs.. streaks too! :-)

[Virtusx]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Holy crap, how many LRM boats are 8 person teams facing? FOUR Mechs, an entire lance/half a team, using variants solely to block missiles?

Time to nerf LRM's to the GROUND.

Actually I find the information denial or cannot just target the mech for info more than I cannot fire LRM's or streaks. That I think is why people take ecm. Also without targeting it can make it more difficult to call targets, instead of focus on B it is focus on the mech second from the left, ya, that D-DC, no no, not that one the other one

Example:

I am in a Cataphract and I was shooting a Hunchback, it runs by me, I cannot see it so I turn, but since I nor anyone on my team can target it I lost track of it behind a hill or something, w/o ecm someone else on my team could see it so I know where it went and can try to finish it. Or perhaps my opponent is down and I cycle through targets looking for a hurt mech to try to finish it instead of going after a fresh one to deny the other team more firepower quicker or the psychological advantage being down a few mechs may mean.

Edited by Virtusx, 05 December 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[M0rpHeu5]

I may be called an *** but i love to see the missile boaters cry, sorry but i really enjoy it.

ECM

[stjobe]

Virtusx, on 05 December 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Actually I find the information denial or cannot just target the mech for info more than I cannot fire LRM's or streaks.

Example:

I am in a Cataphract and I was shooting a Hunchback, it runs by me, I cannot see it so I turn, but since I nor anyone on my team can target it I lost track of it behind a hill or something, w/o ecm someone else on my team could see it so I know where it went and can try to finish it. Or perhaps my opponent is down and I cycle through targets looking for a hurt mech to try to finish it instead of going after a fresh one to deny the other team more firepower quicker or the psychological advantage being down a few mechs may mean.

I love this aspect of ECM. Fog-of-war, it's great not having 100% reliable information about the other side. Sometimes you just need to fall back on the Mark I Eyeball and look at what's out there.

It makes matches much more interesting, even if you're on the receiving end of ECM.

[Jonnara]

Azzura, on 05 December 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Umm I am in NZ playing a brawler..had 2 games with 6 kills (lastnight). Not one lrm was fired by me.

Lucky you than cause anything running over 60kph on my 350+ ping, I have to play hit box detective.

[Virtusx]

stjobe, on 05 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I love this aspect of ECM. Fog-of-war, it's great not having 100% reliable information about the other side. Sometimes you just need to fall back on the Mark I Eyeball and look at what's out there.

It makes matches much more interesting, even if you're on the receiving end of ECM.

Yep, I think it is neat too. Was pointing it out to Garth though, it was not about no LRM lock it was about as you put it better, fog-of-war.

Though i would like BAP to give an advantage. Like instead of dropping target down to 25% it adds 10% so you have some extra distance you can lock the target, not too much but enough to take BAP for a little extra.

[Asatruer]

Aquilus, on 05 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

If only there was some kind of Short Range Missiles that could be fired without requiring a lock. PGI, get on it!

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

We're on it

Excellent!
Is this confirmation that you guys are working on MRMs already?
Also, when are you guys going to fix the "bug" in SRMs that is making them Dead-Fire when they are not supposed to be?

[Dracol]

From the dev blogs prior to beta, PGI stated they were making a mechwarrior title that would rely on role warfare and brawling.

The ecm package, IMHO, has taken the game away from lrm feast it was and brought it back inline with the dev's original stated design philosophy.

One lrm boat on a team can be a huge asset if played right and with team work. Any more then one and you're looking at overspecialization possibly hampering your team.

[Virtusx]

Asatruer, on 05 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Excellent!
Is this confirmation that you guys are working on MRMs already?
Also, when are you guys going to fix the "bug" in SRMs that is making them Dead-Fire when they are not supposed to be?

I think he might have meant they have SRM's already which are dumb fire.
Also, did you mean bug with streak SRM's still firing without lock?

[Nathan Foxbane]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Holy crap, how many LRM boats are 8 person teams facing? FOUR Mechs, an entire lance/half a team, using variants solely to block missiles?

Time to nerf LRM's to the GROUND.

As both a Founders Cat pilot and a Cicada pilot (aka public enemy #1 and target #1 respectively) I can assure you we have been very LRM heavy and BAP exacerbated the problem I have not had the chance to play the new patch, but if what I am reading is true then basically the 8 man drops are going for the "take off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." approach now that they have an actual tool to effectively counter and almost completely neutralize LRMs. My suggestion may seem counter intuitive to the problem, but perhaps an asymmetric approach to this developement might be in order.
Start with what Taryys suggested on the first page and I recommend the addition of spread expansion as an effect of being under an ECM umbrella. The expansion to be to the point where only between 75-50% of the missiles hitting a stationary or slow target that lacks AMS. Artemis will be jammed and have no enhancement effects.

As for the number of LRM boats for that kind of disproportionate reaction I would say anywhere from 3 pure LRM boats to 5 LRM equipped 'Mechs. Give it a bit though. As LRMs become ineffective boating should taper off and once it become greatly pronounced the ECM stacking will taper off and things should reach an equilibrium. Though I do question giving the D-DC ECM as was it not suppose to be equipped with a command console? My research shows that the Dr and S2 were the only Atlai with ECM.

[Lykaon]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

To completely negate a 65 ton Catapult or other missile boat, all a 35 ton ECM equipped raven needs to do is anklebite the opposing mech.

Period. A shot never has to be fired.

As the raven ankle bites the poor cat, negating 90% of his damage capabilities, essentially taking him out of the fight without any use of skill since an ECM raven can approach, in plain site, a LRM cat without worry (pssh, that cat has 2 medium lasers. THE HORROR)... and then simply circle him to keep his ability to lock 100% negated. 'But what about the main group. they no longer have ECM protection'...

Now that the LRMS are negated, all you have to worry about is streak cats. Focused fire fixes that. Once the main unit is down, the core body simply moves into the direction of the neutered LRM boat/boats to destroy at will.

the most basic tactic requiring less skill than a streak cat. Sure, it's a similar tactic as in the past, except in the past, your harassing mech had to work LOS to get close to the LRMs, and was typically a Medium. Now, the smallest mech can do it in plain site without even so much as a worry. Once the main group is engaged, this tactic is easy mode.

It breaks balance. The only counter is to stack support on your LRMs, or not take LRMS, which pulls off from the main body. Not a feasible option.

ECM has value, but by leaving Radar broken in it's pre-ecm state, it's given more value. ECMs will need an adjustment in their current state, or Radar will need to work more like it's real world component and allow for more than just 'LOS' tactical display.

1) Use an Atlas D-DC with it's own ECM and LRMs and close support weapons instead of a Catapult.
2) Use teamwork to quickly neutralize the enemy ECM.
3) Have a friendly ECCM near the LRM boats.
4) Use your LRMs aggressivley and not sit like a bump on a log.Load a BAP and TAG on a C1 catapult with twin artemis 15s.Get your own LOS and TAG it yourself.Move so the ECM mech won't just follow your salvos back to your possition.
5) If you have a light ECM mech hugging your legs run towards your friendly brawlers.Let them scrape the leg hugger off.

[Harrison Kelly]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Holy crap, how many LRM boats are 8 person teams facing? FOUR Mechs, an entire lance/half a team, using variants solely to block missiles?

Time to nerf LRM's to the GROUND.

Honestly Garth, I am seeing 3+ ECM Mechs in 8v8 drops, and a fair amount of 5+ ECM Mechs. It's not so much immunity to missiles that gives them such a big advantage, although that is certainly a perk. Most 8-man premades I've dropped with/against don't even run missiles, so the very presence of ECM is negating the threat.

The C3 advantage is so big, though, that it's very desirable to move your group around without being to target them/designate primary targets until SOMEONE from your team gets on top of them.

[MetaMaxy]

"poor Cat" are you serious?!? Oh I'm sorry you can't sit 1000m away and click your fire and forget noob lrms. ECM are amazing don't fix them all it's doing is making lock weapon spammers get some skill suck it streak and lrm boats

[Asatruer]

Virtusx, on 05 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

I think he might have meant they have SRM's already which are dumb fire.
Also, did you mean bug with streak SRM's still firing without lock?

If you have to explain a joke, it isn't funny anymore, but...


Yeah, I know that Aquilus and Garth Erlam are talking about SRMs.
Did you know that SRMs in BattleTech canon are not unguided dead-fire missiles?
The only dead-fire missiles in BattleTech are MRMs, and the Dead-Fire missile variant ammo for LRMs and SRMs that were replaced by MRMs.

So, since they were being sarcastic, for the sake carrying on the humor I pretended that I was making the false assumption that they were talking about MRMs, the only unguided missiles in BattleTech, and then following up with pretending as though I thought that the SRMs not having their proper ability to be guided as they are in BattleTech canon was just a bug that people have not yet noticed.

[Rina Fujimoto]

I love how you can tell it's just the missile babbies whining.

To be honest I've barely even noticed when anyone is carrying ECM.

Why? Because I've always used weapons that require aim.

The only difference between this patch and the last one for me is that now:
a. Sometimes I can't take a look at the enemy paper doll to see where to focus fire anymore, not that big of a deal.
b. I don't dread launching into pub matches and seeing nothing but heavy mechs on my team knowing we're about to get utterly ***** by no skill streakers and LRM boats.

I mean seriously, have you ever spectated pubs? Half of them don't even lock on, or press R, ever.
So why should ECM affect them? Oh right, it doesn't because they don't use auto aim weapons.

Listen buddy, I'm gonna tell you the same thing you, and all your streak friends have been telling us for a long time now:

ECM ONLY HAS SHORT RANGE! JUST OUTRUN IT! IT'S NOT HARD! JUST FOCUS FIRE ON THE ECM MECHS! ITS EASY! JUST USE TEAM WORK! IF AN ECM MECH GETS NEAR YOU YOU DESERVE TO DIE! JUST GET ON C3 AND FIND SOME PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH! THIS IS A TEAM BASED GAME!

The game is the funnest it's been since closed beta right now, and let me tell you, Battletech has, and always will be, about direct face to face brawling combat.

Deal with it.

[Khobai]

Quote

ECM ONLY HAS SHORT RANGE!

No it doesnt. It reduces detection range from 800m to 200m. That is more than short range buddy.