253 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

Bguk, on 05 December 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

And then, a player on the shooters team realizes they had a pair of Nikes' Enable Team to Shoot 3.0, they put them on, then stood at least 181m away from the blocker enabling the shooter to shoot.

Uh-huh, and you are driving WHAT exactly that can stay 180-200m from a 130kph Commando?

Bguk, on 05 December 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Or they had an enforcer on their team knock the disabler out, still enabling a shot to be taken.

Ah, yes, the counter to everything; have twice as many people!

[Dahn]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

To completely negate a 65 ton Catapult or other missile boat, all a 35 ton ECM equipped raven needs to do is anklebite the opposing mech.

Period. A shot never has to be fired.

As the raven ankle bites the poor cat, negating 90% of his damage capabilities, essentially taking him out of the fight without any use of skill since an ECM raven can approach, in plain site, a LRM cat without worry (pssh, that cat has 2 medium lasers. THE HORROR)... and then simply circle him to keep his ability to lock 100% negated. 'But what about the main group. they no longer have ECM protection'...

Now that the LRMS are negated, all you have to worry about is streak cats. Focused fire fixes that. Once the main unit is down, the core body simply moves into the direction of the neutered LRM boat/boats to destroy at will.

the most basic tactic requiring less skill than a streak cat. Sure, it's a similar tactic as in the past, except in the past, your harassing mech had to work LOS to get close to the LRMs, and was typically a Medium. Now, the smallest mech can do it in plain site without even so much as a worry. Once the main group is engaged, this tactic is easy mode.

It breaks balance. The only counter is to stack support on your LRMs, or not take LRMS, which pulls off from the main body. Not a feasible option.

ECM has value, but by leaving Radar broken in it's pre-ecm state, it's given more value. ECMs will need an adjustment in their current state, or Radar will need to work more like it's real world component and allow for more than just 'LOS' tactical display.

TAG has a range of 450. Buy it, use it, kill Raven, go back to spamming LRMS.

[Vassa]

The game has become race for the enemy base. Period.

[Dukov Nook]

Lt Limpy, on 05 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

I can see that point being made, but in my experience every LRM cat I rush up on freaks out and tries to target me instead, removing himself from the main fight anyway, as I take away his ears and add them to my necklace.

Yes, but you had to work to get close to that LRM boat. Now, an ECM equipped raven doesn't even need to do that. It can walk right up, in plain site, without being able to be targeted.

[Mavairo]

Wait, so you don't support your LRM boats against the possibility of them becoming out flanked?

And here you were talking about me not knowing what I was talking about?

Your LRM boats were already in danger of being neutered and removed from the field. All ECM did, was make it so they wouldn't be bombarding as they were being cut to ribbons.

A raven who's smart even with ECM isn't going to just waltz up. He's going to out flank (and definitely a cicada or commando will as well), because he's not going to want to be shot to pieces by you know. Guass, (assuming the gauss user has any Skill in leading targets) Lasers, or have an enemy light or fast heavy (dragon for example) wheel off, leg him and then put him down anyway.

You should have already been protecting your LRM carriers at least in some capacity in the first place.

ECM doesn't negate, lasers, ballistics, nor unguided rockets.

Edited by Mavairo, 05 December 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Socket7]

TAG.

Learn it. Love it.

Or you know, have a brawler hunch like me with you to blow up ankle biters. I LOVE blowing up commandos, ravens and jenners! They think they are oh so smart trying to circle strafe me. Then they run into a cliff face or a building because they're amazed I'm getting hits on them.

Then comes the alpha strike.

[Viper69]

Can said catapult equip a narc beacon and hit said raven so his friends with missiles can pound him, or even a tag laser?

[Dukov Nook]

Mavairo, on 05 December 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Wait, so you don't support your LRM boats against the possibility of them becoming out flanked?

And here you were talking about me not knowing what I was talking about?

Your LRM boats were already in danger of being neutered and removed from the field. All ECM did, was make it so they wouldn't be bombarding as they were being cut to ribbons.

Didn't even read any of this, did you.

This has nothing to do with being out flanked. Instead, they have given Ravens an ez button to negate cats without any effort.

[Heeden]

You could always ask a team mate to shoot the Raven.

[Dukov Nook]

Socket7, on 05 December 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

TAG.

Learn it. Love it.

Or you know, have a brawler hunch like me with you to blow up ankle biters. I LOVE blowing up commandos, ravens and jenners! They think they are oh so smart trying to circle strafe me. Then they run into a cliff face or a building because they're amazed I'm getting hits on them.

Then comes the alpha strike.

Still gives the other team a man advantage in the main furball while peeling off 100+ tons to deal with a raven that doesn't ever need to fire a shot.

That isn't balance. You are, at best, peeling off 20% of your focused fire DPS doing this.

Edited by Dukov Nook, 05 December 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Grraarrgghh]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Didn't even read any of this, did you.

This has nothing to do with being out flanked. Instead, they have given Ravens an ez button to negate cats without any effort.

And LRMs are what, hard mode?

[Bguk]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

So now you pull a guy away from the 4 on 4 scrum in the center court, giving them a man advantage so two larger skill players deal with a much smaller unskilled player using a special shoe.

Your numbers don't add up. LRM boats are typically much further out from the main group. Even at 500 meters out, pulling someone out to counter ECM gives a man advantage to the other team.

your scenario says 1 35 ton mech using ECM cheese, without firing a shot, can tie up 2 mechs now, with only 1 mech feasibly able to shoot, and insist there is balance?

So first it's ECM then it's skill? So we can only have ECM if all players are skilled? It happens over time. People either learn or they don't. Some players are more skilled than others. Like in bb. Lebron James is more skillful then say the 10th player on the Washington Wizards for example.

My numbers do add up as I am still using 4v4, just not in the way you're using them. I don't need all 4 of my players facehugging all 4 of yours. I can keep a couple out wide in case I need to pass for a 3.

You're stuck on ECM and I can see that, it's still new. There are counters currently and still need to test it out. I'm just not blindly stating that ECM is cheese because I don't want to use my mind.

[Bilbo]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

See my above reply. 1 mech taking 2 others out of a battle without firing a shot is not balance.

1 mech doesn't take 2 out of battle. 1 mech with ecm engages another mech with ecm, while countering said ecm, allowing the missile boat to continue firing away.

[Dukov Nook]

Grraarrgghh, on 05 December 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

And LRMs are what, hard mode?

LRMs require more skill than just walk up to another mech and negate it's utilization 100% without doing anything else.

[Oinkage]

Tactics! We have to use tactics? Nerf the thing that forces us to think and use tactics!

Dear OP: I'm sure someone in TBW understood how game changing ECM would be. I'd even bet they probably posted something in their forums telling you to get ready for it. Good luck on your forum warrior-ing attempt to get ECM nerfed. I'm hoping you fail. I enjoy the added complexity of unraveling an electronics warfare puzzle while shooting at the enemy.

[Viper69]

My atlas takes multiple mechs to counter it. So a electronic warfare mech should as well. They are sacrificing tonnage on their team to nullify enemy tonnage through electronic warfare, instead of brute force.

[Dukov Nook]

Oinkage, on 05 December 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Tactics! We have to use tactics? Nerf the thing that forces us to think and use tactics!

Dear OP: I'm sure someone in TBW understood how game changing ECM would be. I'd even bet they probably posted something in their forums telling you to get ready for it. Good luck on your forum warrior-ing attempt to get ECM nerfed. I'm hoping you fail. I enjoy the added complexity of unraveling an electronics warfare puzzle while shooting at the enemy.

Thank you for adding nothing. I wish you a good day.

Viper69, on 05 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

My atlas takes multiple mechs to counter it. So a electronic warfare mech should as well. They are sacrificing tonnage on their team to nullify enemy tonnage through electronic warfare, instead of brute force.

That team was going to have a scout, regardless. They aren't really sacrificing tonnage.

[Grraarrgghh]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

LRMs require more skill than just walk up to another mech and negate it's utilization 100% without doing anything else.

What skill is that? Keeping a targeting reticule in a box for 2 seconds?

I'd say that's equally simple (if not more simple) that getting through an enemies firing line, avoiding getting shot, and sidling up to a mech twice your size.

[Rhanne]

Before ECM, in my raven i was able to draw several heavies/assults from the battle by cappin the base. Was that OP, because I was able to draw many times my own tonnage away? If you dont protect assets (base, LRM boats, Ecm mechs,your cheese sandwich) they will be taken away from you. BTW. Been running a CAT since closed, and still do. I just think that ECM brings a whole new layer to the game.

[Bguk]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Uh-huh, and you are driving WHAT exactly that can stay 180-200m from a 130kph Commando?

Ah, yes, the counter to everything; have twice as many people!

Oh and I drive Jenners, Hunchies, Cats. Nowhere did I state it was me staying that far away from the speedy Commando.

No where did I say the other team gets more people. I needed to be more specific I take it. 4v4. Obviously the ECM team is facehugging each other in a nice little group. Then the LRM team has 2 to meet them head on. A 3rd tagger then tags any of the enemies, doesn't have to be the ECMer. 4th is the LRM boat that can now fire on said tagged target. Just for a rough example.