78 replies to this topic

[Imagine Dragons]

Nice idea OP

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I think the topic can be expanded especially for newbies.
PUGstomping is getting more and more easy in PUG matches. Last night we tested it due to lack of 8th player we had to split in a 4 and a 3 man team and we ran through won games like a hot knife through butter.

[Solis Obscuri]

Gori, you sell yourself short. Your English language skills are quite excellent.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I even think that it is very rare that we see such well written and constructive threads started. Definitely a move in the right direction.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I honestly think this thread and the OP are to mature, so the whining ECM threads get more attention hehe

[GoriKarafong]

Terry Ward, on 14 December 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

I honestly think this thread and the OP are to mature, so the whining ECM threads get more attention hehe

Thank you for the flowers, sadly I fear it is way too long and mostly nobody is willing to read it. Maybe if it gets a bump once in a while and some support from likeminded players a moderator or a dev will be reading it. I hope PGI knows about the ECM problems and are willing to do something about it. Garth are you reading this? ;-)

[Hammer RLG]

OK, i read it! all of it. lots of good ideas, and your english is just fine.

if you have not done so, check out these two other ECM threads, and vote (if you are so inclined). it all helps. mostly good discussion (except one person has to say others are wrong) and ideas as well:

http://mwomercs.com/...les-considered/

http://mwomercs.com/...-more-balanced/

[Beo Vulf]

Electronic conter measures (ECM) is a system designed to make electronic detection of military assets more difficult. It does not cloak the tank, plane, etc. it just makes it harder to detect. Than there is ECCM which is designed to disrupt ECM and make targets more visible. ECM in Battletech/Mechwarrior was countered to some point by BAP which not only uses Electronic detection, but also uses magnetic, siesmic, and heat detection. ECM should make it harder to detect even with BAP but should not make it impossible. Give Bap more functionality by allowing people to switch between detection modes.

[GoriKarafong]

I fear the suggestion in the first post would be quiet hard to realise by PGI. Or at least they would need to start nearly back at zero with ECM.

I hope they think really hard about it and decide to make it right instead of just tweaking it a little bit. I fear with just tweaking it the current system can never really shine.

Also they need to do something about those ssrm they are still broken. Fixing something broken with something other broken never was a good idea.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

GoriKarafong, on 16 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

I fear the suggestion in the first post would be quiet hard to realise by PGI. Or at least they would need to start nearly back at zero with ECM.

I hope they think really hard about it and decide to make it right instead of just tweaking it a little bit. I fear with just tweaking it the current system can never really shine.

Also they need to do something about those ssrm they are still broken. Fixing something broken with something other broken never was a good idea.

You are right there, it is not easy to implement, but actually and I hope I do not sound harsh, it is this time PGI's fault. They went way off canon and TT rules with their ECM implementation (first time as with everything else they stick to canon and TT pretty closely) and hence it backfired.
It is also quite logical: If you have everything based on TT rules or a modification of TT rules (aka play with the numbers a bit, but stick to the general ruleset) and then implement something totally different than in that ruleset, chances are astronomical that it will be totally unbalanced. I think PGI's intentions were pretty good actually, as they prolly thought to give us something more tactical, but also a bit short sighted as it basically eliminated all tactics and hugely prefers min/max AC/Laser builds for close range brawl and ECM. All other tactics have been made obsolete.
Thus if something backfires so drastically as ECM did, you need to have the guts to scrap the idea and implement something new.
Now we are beta-testers and we can live with the current ECM for a time until they come up with a decent more balanced implementation, like we did with other huge flaws during beta, but I strongly belief we need balance back and an ECM that is more along TT rules.

[GoriKarafong]

I am really worried about what Paul said to PC Gamer about ECM

Quote

I also asked Inouye if Piranha is happy with the recent implementation of the ECM (electronic counter-measures) system to MWO, which allows some mechs to equip radar and lock-on jamming equipment. "The effect [of ECM] is working as intended and forces players to play a lot smarter," he said. "Specialized Mechs still have their place on the battlefield but they are going to need the assistance of their teammates to succeed. If you plan on taking specialized Mech into a match, plan wisely and have alternate weapon systems that will help you with mid to long-range combat. People are thinking we need to severely 'nerf' the ECM. This is not the case at all. There is already 1 counter-ECM item in the game (TAG), and likely there will be a couple more involving modules and weapon effects.

I read it as: You Player Do not understand what great ideas the allmighty PGI has. You players are unworthy and just plain not good enough to play with the great ECM.

Honestly I fear they never read my first post (analysis) if they would have they would understand that not an ECM is the problem but the results of there implementation of ECM.

Sadly this reads like the beginning of an end.

[Attalward]

Taht are som e very good suggestions on the op. I fully support this idea.

[MaddMaxx]

As far a BAP goes, in the TT game, it had:

Quote

The Inner Sphere Beagle Active Probe weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical spaces. It has a detection range of four hexes.

which translates to a useful range of only 120m. By adding that range to the "Lock-On" range, it made it much more useful until ECM came along. Despite the Loss of that additional Lock On range, given that ECM is a 180m bubble, BAP would be negated before reaching it useable range anyways.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 17 December 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

I think if PGI really doesn't want to change ECM much, they should at least make 2 tiny adjustments.

1: Make BAP nullify all ECM in a 180m radius. As is BAP is useless, since terrain is generally too complex to give the extra targeting range any value. Also, putting ECM into counter mode is a tiny tiny tiny band-aid, on the huge problem of 8 man teams where everyone has ECM.

2: Make a target using ECM detectable without line of site within 300-500m. I can actually do this visually using heat vision mode (obviously not at 500 m) so why can't my highly advanced sensor suite do so?

Why? ECM works by blasting white noise, or by destructively interfering with signals. Either the white noise is really obvious from far away and very easy to pinpoint at a distance (because it's not overwhelming your sensors) or your interference algorithm breaks down at longer ranges (it's literally impossible to generate a perfect interference signal that works at all ranges).

This means that having ECM is a liability at medium range, which it should be, as any advantage provided by any gear in any game needs a subsequent drawback. That's how games work. That's what makes them fun. That's what makes things like ECM not "ez mode".

These changes still leave ECM overpowered, but if they want to add more sensor warfare stuff to counter ECM, it at least makes the time until they do so bearable.

P.S. Another, less painful way of implementing adjustment 2 is to add a circle to the map that shows what areas are affected by ECM when a friendly mech is with 500m of range from the mech generating the bubble.

Edited by p4g3m4s7r, 17 December 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Tykelau]

+1 OP

[Hoshi Toranaga]

GoriKarafong, on 17 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I am really worried about what Paul said to PC Gamer about ECM



I read it as: You Player Do not understand what great ideas the allmighty PGI has. You players are unworthy and just plain not good enough to play with the great ECM.

Honestly I fear they never read my first post (analysis) if they would have they would understand that not an ECM is the problem but the results of there implementation of ECM.

Sadly this reads like the beginning of an end.

Wow this has me worried also.
As I said I can live with having this ECM BS we have now for a time (like I am also living for a time without knockdowns of light mechs), but if the problem persist I fear this might be a gamestopper for me... which would be incredibly sad, as I do not want to wait another 10 years for a mech game and before ECM this was so much fun...

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Giving this a free bump.

[SJ SCP Wolf]

Well written, well thought out, but that doesn't suddenly make it viable. You aren't a dev. You do not have the big picture in front of you. We do not have a feature complete or inventory complete game. The ECM 'issue' is one of wait and see. They've got plenty of things planned. Let's see what they are.

edit: I am thankful for what Paul said to PC Gamer. They shouldn't be designing or balancing via the wims of the community. Especially when the game is so far from complete. Community input has much higher value when the game is nearly done. They have internal teams for the type of changes this thread is requesting.

Edited by SJ SCP Wolf, 23 December 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[Krondor]

Good post OP.


I don't think ECM is overpowered right now, but it does totally miss the mark of adding tactical options. Without any disadvantages or any practical counter other than more ECM, there's no reason to pilot a mech without it. I'm finding ECM heavy matches (namely 8v8) totally lack any variety in gameplay or chassis whatsoever.

When a piece of equipment is SO good there'sno reason to NOT run it, it needs rebalancing, either via reduction in capabilities, increase in disadvantages, or implimentation of better counters.

Just my $0.02

[Hoshi Toranaga]

It is OP if it makes 8 mans come down to ECM mechs only... boring... I do not even play 8man anymore.