78 replies to this topic

[Multitallented]

+1 ECM is imbalanced. Most teams run 4 ECM if not more. Raven battles rely heavily on it.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

So last 2 weeks I have been running an ECM raven (going 130+) in PUG matches or in teams of 4.
It is ridiculous how easy mode this is.
You can take down anything so easily it is not even funny.
The only counter is if you face off against another ECM light/med or the enemy has 2 of them and they hunt you in a group and those with worse ping and lag shield will loose.
Anything else you are invincible.

I would take a step back and not call it unbalanced, it is off the charts unbalanced. I feel sorry for the many founders jenner pilots that get wasted, because they have no ECM shield.
I thought 8man was bad, but usual PUG matches are worse, as people try to play something else until you come along with your ECM mechs and utterly destroy them.
I can now also see why so many post "ECM is fine", I can see how this may be fun for some people to totally stomp non-ECM opponents.

[Rawrshuga]

I agree for the most part with the original post, however, having played the TT game as well as the Mechwarrior series, I feel that ECM should ONLY work against units within the 180m zone, not outside it.

This means that the ECM shroud would protect friendly units from the effects of NARC, TAG, Artemis, but not prevent targeting or lock-ons. The exception to this rule is that IF the ECM mech is within 180m of an enemy mech, the enemy mech's sensors are affected and they can't use computerised targeting. i.e. no red/green indicators, no target boxes, nothing except your crosshairs and good ole eyeballs.

The unfortunate thing about the ECM as is, is that it doesn't even work as advertised. The low signal effect only removes blips from the minimap. It does not prevent targeting at all except for targets outside of the 180m zone. In effect, they way I see it, they got the whole thing backwards. Friendly mechs should only be untargetable IF the ECM mech is within 180m of the enemy mechs and 'jamming' their targeting that way.

There's even an (unnecessary) added layer of complexity when it comes to COUNTER as COUNTER only works on the nearest enemy ECM. So it's useless if there's more ECM there than there is counter-ECM. Which is just ridiculous. It makes it a requirement to run ECM just to balance the game.

Reduce ECM's zone of influence to the 180m, properly implement the effects in that zone, and remove counter, and the whole thing should get a lot more balanced.

[OskaRus]

I think you overcomplicate ECM problem.

symptom: lights are unhittable in any range by any weapon

Problem:
1) you cant run from lights because of their speed (ok on its own)
2) you cant hit them with direct fire weaponry because of lagshield (netcode serious issue)
3) you cant hit them with targeted weaponry because of ecm (ok. on its own.)

Result: 1+2+3=lights are immortal until you stop and let yourself being hit by gauss or something

Observation:
Problem 3) makes ECM a bit OP. In any MW games ECM was rare, range limited and often affectiong only mech it was equipped on. Why PIGi decided to put uber angel ecm on any mech i dont know.
Problem 2) is another serous issue which needs attention and would seriously ease the pain ecm is causing.

Suggestion:
make ecm ineffective in close range to use streaks as anti light weapon. Otherwise there is no weapon which could be effective against lights without using of crystal globe to predict real light mech location.

[Rawrshuga]

@OskaRus

I pilot a Raven RVN-3L from time to time and I believe that ECM is unbalanced. Note that I do not say OP. It's unbalanced. It creates a dominant style of play where the side with the most ECM invariably wins.

I agree with you that the issue with lights is a totally separate matter. It's impossible for me to handle a RVN-3L when I'm in my RVN-2x simply because the 3L can mount a 295 engine and the limit on the 2x is a 240. That means the 3L will always outrun, outturn, and outgun me. But that's a totally separate issue.

The problem is that you're thinking that the complaint about ECM is being unbalanced is purely directed at light mechs. It is not. You'd have an similarly impossible time if the enemy had 8 ECM equipped atlases. ECM prevents you from targeting all enemy mechs, prevents you from spotting for your team, prevents you from coordinating efforts not just when the enemy ECM is 180m from you but all across the map. No single upgrade of the same price, space, and tonnage has such an all encompassing effect on the game.

That's why IMO ECM's should not cloak, but will still maintain its jam ability. As for the inability to hit light mechs ... that's more a netcode issue, and also due to that annoying autocannon fire delay (which is also a netcode issue, I'm told), and also the build restrictions imposed on other light mechs (which is totally unfair IMO--especially when it's on mechs of the same base chassis). So yeah, nerfing ECM may not fix the problem with light mechs, but it doesn't change the fact that ECM as is, is unbalancing the gameplay into a single dominant tactic for which there is no effective counter except to run the exact same tactic.

[Long Draw]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the ECM module according to sarna and Tabletop supposed to weigh about 7 tons and take up 3 crit slots? Seems a bit off that the ECM module ingame right now only weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 crit slots. Maybe if it did weigh 5-7 tons and lets say still take up 2 crit slots, then perhaps it would be a more difficult decision similar to the endo steel and ferro fibrous upgrades. If your ECM weighs as much as a Large Laser and all it does is "reduce" the enemy's ability to target you, then it wouldn't be such a simple and easy choice.

[DocBach]

Part of fixing ECM I think is to buff other electronic warfare equipment - a nerf of ECM wouldn't sting as much to ECM users if the system had useful electronic warfare devices like Narc and Beagle to block.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Similar thread to the original post, where I go through different rule sets and highlight some changes to ECM and the rest of information warfare.

Edited by DocBach, 02 January 2013 - 10:50 PM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Simple fact is that current ECM is like Angel ECM with some abilities of "null armor".
Technology introduced way after 3060 and way to powerful, as even in canon and TT they removed it as Angel was "prototype" only and not easy to get if at all. The clans even banned it, as it was "unwarrior" like behaviour to mount such a device (even though they developed it long before the IS).

Some people might even say that what we have is the same device the Kell brothers used to make their mechs "phantom" like in the Stackpole novels.

Phantom Mech Link:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Phantom_'Mech

Null Signature System:
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System
(Actually what we have very closely...)

Chameleon System:
http://www.sarna.net...rization_Shield

Edited by Terry Ward, 03 January 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[DocBach]

Well, there was theories that phantom 'Mech was actually the result of the Kells finding an advanced Star League ECM device in a cache somewhere.

[Pando]

OP - Long post, enjoyed reading it.

Terry Ward, on 03 January 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Simple fact is that current ECM is like Angel ECM with some abilities of "null armor".
Technology introduced way after 3060 and way to powerful, as even in canon and TT they removed it as Angel was "prototype" only and not easy to get if at all. The clans even banned it, as it was "unwarrior" like behaviour to mount such a device (even though they developed it long before the IS).

Some people might even say that what we have is the same device the Kell brothers used to make their mechs "phantom" like in the Stackpole novels.

Phantom Mech Link:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Phantom_'Mech

Null Signature System:
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System
(Actually what we have very closely...)

Chameleon System:
http://www.sarna.net...rization_Shield

That being said, we already had access to mech'tech from the 3050 era in 3049. Some variants were NOT available in 3049 but we were able to play with them anyways (AWS-9M for example). Perhaps the time-line 1:1 ratio is intended as a "foundation".

Edited by Pando, 03 January 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[StonedDead]

To be balanced, all weapon systems have an upside and a downside. ECM in its current implementation has no downside. It needs to have a penalty for using it in some form. I really don't want to play ECM Online. In other games ECM was not effectively the same as null sig as it is here. It only decreased the efficiency of locks, tag, narc, and BAP. Now it completely counters them utterly. If you had all those other things in other games, they reduced the effectiveness of ECM, and it should here too. We need something to make ECM less effective. In MW4, ECM only reduced radar range and increased lock on time, the counter was TAG, NARC, and BAP. These things in this game need to be able to counter ECM or this game will continue to be ECM Online. I also think ECM range should be cut by half at least if we get nothing but ECM to counter ECM with, as well as a heat penalty or something for using it.

Edited by Zekester81, 03 January 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Wraithfox]

THIS IS NOT TABLE TOP, STOP TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO A 20 YEAR OLD GAME MOST PLAYERS IN MWO HAVE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF. Tabletop is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE GAME. *activates veteran player rage shield*


No. ECM is fine just the way it is. I am a scout raven for 95% of my matches, My primary job is finding enemy mechs for my team, Killing them is secondary as I am not outfitted for heavy combat. ECM keeps me safe and allows me to do my primary job with out the worry of those camping missile boats killing me from the comfort of their base.

They're just raging that ecm is a game balancer and 3 to 4 streak/LRM boats can't completely rule the field now.

Dev's the ecm is fine as it is. Weaken it and you break scouting.

(Though I believe ecm ability should be restricted to lights only. THATS IT.)

Before ECM, Every single match was a suicide mission. Scouts ALWAYS died and 90% of the time my deaths were at the hands of Missileboats. Hell, I would literally go in KNOWING that I was going to die before the match was over with. ECM helps stop that.

Personally I think Missileboats are still OP, They can lock to ANY locked target that is not within their LoS, Even from behind a mountain, They're LRMs, Not Artillery.

Zekester81, on 03 January 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

To be balanced, all weapon systems have an upside and a downside. ECM in its current implementation has no downside. It needs to have a penalty for using it in some form. I really don't want to play ECM Online. In other games ECM was not effectively the same as null sig as it is here. It only decreased the efficiency of locks, tag, narc, and BAP. Now it completely counters them utterly. If you had all those other things in other games, they reduced the effectiveness of ECM, and it should here too. We need something to make ECM less effective. In MW4, ECM only reduced radar range and increased lock on time, the counter was TAG, NARC, and BAP. These things in this game need to be able to counter ECM or this game will continue to be ECM Online. I also think ECM range should be cut by half at least if we get nothing but ECM to counter ECM with, as well as a heat penalty or something for using it.

It weights 1.5 tons and takes up two slots, You are also restricted to either a low armor light or a slug atlas. Those are its drawbacks. Your entire argument is invalid.

Edited by Wraithfox, 03 January 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

So Wraithfox:
Driving my Raven 3L with ECM, in one game I took out (ON MY OWN) an Atlas, Cataphract and a Stalker. I was top damage dealer with 700+ even above any assault on my team (Stalkers can go home now), while I was shielding my own team from LRMs the whole time so they could munch down the rest of the enemies.

Yeah. Simple fact is Wraithfox you are one of those who enjoy ECM as the thing they have to PUGstomp like crazy and be invincible. How boring is that...

[StonedDead]

Wraithfox, on 03 January 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

THIS IS NOT TABLE TOP, STOP TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO A 20 YEAR OLD GAME MOST PLAYERS IN MWO HAVE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF. Tabletop is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE GAME. *activates veteran player rage shield*


No. ECM is fine just the way it is. I am a scout raven for 95% of my matches, My primary job is finding enemy mechs for my team, Killing them is secondary as I am not outfitted for heavy combat. ECM keeps me safe and allows me to do my primary job with out the worry of those camping missile boats killing me from the comfort of their base.

They're just raging that ecm is a game balancer and 3 to 4 streak/LRM boats can't completely rule the field now.

Dev's the ecm is fine as it is. Weaken it and you break scouting.

(Though I believe ecm ability should be restricted to lights only. THATS IT.)

Before ECM, Every single match was a suicide mission. Scouts ALWAYS died and 90% of the time my deaths were at the hands of Missileboats. Hell, I would literally go in KNOWING that I was going to die before the match was over with. ECM helps stop that.

Personally I think Missileboats are still OP, They can lock to ANY locked target that is not within their LoS, Even from behind a mountain, They're LRMs, Not Artillery.



It weights 1.5 tons and takes up two slots, You are also restricted to either a low armor light or a slug atlas. Those are its drawbacks. Your entire argument is invalid.

My argument is not invalid when, in most matches, over half of all mechs fielded are ECM capable. It weighs 1.5 tons and takes up two slots and is more effective in combat than ALL OTHER SYSTEMS COMBINED. Why then are light mechs achieving what assaults and heavies should be getting in the way of damage done? You were sick of missile boats? Well I'm sick of rabid packs of Commandos and Ravens swarming and killing everything with impunity! They are light mechs for the love of all that is MW! A light mech shouldn't be able to kill several heavies and assaults in a single match as easily as slicing butter with a hot knife. They are not meant to be able to do that. They are meant to assist, not be the most powerful mechs in the game.

I know one of the best light pilots I have ever seen in MW. He runs a Raven 3L. He doesn't want to play because he is SICK OF ECM granting god-like powers to mechs!

[VXJaeger]

ECM needs more countermeasures than nerfing. My proposal 4 that
http://mwomercs.com/...61#entry1697461

Right now it works little too effective, but it works so don't mess w/ it.
Make more countermeasures available and voilá.

Edited by VXJaeger, 04 January 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I tend to disagree.

Countering something that is broken OP is not good. It will make the other item mandatory or both items so powerful they will negate each other and become invalid.
ECM needs direct balance and not a counter. The current implementation is totally out of proportion.

[StalaggtIKE]

Wraithfox, on 03 January 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

No. ECM is fine just the way it is. I am a scout raven for 95% of my matches, My primary job is finding enemy mechs for my team, Killing them is secondary as I am not outfitted for heavy combat. ECM keeps me safe and allows me to do my primary job with out the worry of those camping missile boats killing me from the comfort of their base.

No offense but, you're doing it wrong. ECM makes the Raven an effective assault and secondary scout. First day with mine, I killed 5 mechs in first game, then half of team in the next. You're more effective escorting your team within brawl distance and systematically taking the enemy out. ECM has flipped the roles of those that have and those that have-not.

Quote

THIS IS NOT TABLE TOP, STOP TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO A 20 YEAR OLD GAME MOST PLAYERS IN MWO HAVE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF. Tabletop is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE GAME. *activates veteran player rage shield*

Agreed. this game should not directly copy TT, however it should be its major source of inspiration. This wouldn't be case, if this wasn't..., you know, Mech Warrior.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 January 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Nuwa]

Salient, on 05 December 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

I think its fine, the game is better when the enemy has to work at making their ez mode weapons viable.

the new ez mode is 6 DDC Atlas's and 2 ECM ravens...all it did was make different cheese builds

[MaddMaxx]

How about they make the ECM "bubble" a more personal size. Say, 15m. Then you can't pack anyone but yourself inside to get that protection, from LRM's and SSRM's, that so many seem to desire so highly.

Personally, I like to stay with another Mech (rear side cover) and shoot the little buggers with Large Lasers. Got me a couple just the other night. The taxidermist is mounting them as I type. LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 07 January 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Strig]

So I like a lot of what has been said here. I even like what ECM does ... BUT it should do it a little less effectively AND it should be 2 different pieces of equipment. Further, ECM (and any other Electronic Warfare suite) should have a counter that is in the arsenal that is not the same piece of equipment:

ECM:

• Same (or slightly reduced) coverage radius
  
• reduce range of target acquisition to 50% (25% is too harsh)
  
• increase acquisition time (as implemented)
  
• nullify bonuses from Artemis and BAP (and TAG inside the bubble)
  
• DOWNSIDE: does the same to friend and foe in radius (no more invulnerable lag-shielded streak-lights)
  
• COUNTERED BY: TAG (from outside bubble)
  
• COUNTERED BY: PPCs (temporarily shut down electronics after a hit from these weapons)

Null Signature:

• eliminate targeting lock outside of extremely short range (of equipped mech ONLY)
  
• mech does not show on radar (equipped mech ONLY)
  
• eliminate heat signature (for thermal) (of equipped mech ONLY)
  
• DOWNSIDE: applies 10 constant heat while active
  
• COUNTERED BY: NARC
  
• COUNTERED BY: TAG

This would make ECM a useful tool for avoiding missile lock still, but would allow a team without ECM several methods to defeat it. Scouts would likely choose Null Signature over ECM (although both would still be the ultimate protection, but would have a considerable price to pay for the protection offered).



Just my 2 cents.

Terry Ward, on 03 January 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Null Signature System:
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System

Edited by Strig, 07 January 2013 - 02:26 PM.