39 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Autocannon: cannon-caliber ballistic weapon generally firing shells (as opposed to slugs, bullets, or self-propelled missiles) and featuring a rifled or smoothbore barrel and one or more integrated automatic mechanisms that automatically extract and eject used cartridge casings from the weapon, load a new cartridge, and prime the weapon for firing

[Mike Silva]

I think it should be noted that a shell is different from a bullet in that a shell is designed to carry a payload (HEAT, Sabot, etc) and a bullet is not.

[Arbhall Sommers]

Yup everyone got it. Large cannons with auto loaders.
I would like to add however, in the fiction books. The autocannons are described as loosing a long and sustained stream of projectiles. Not large projectiles like the gauss load. Most of the pictures of autocannons in the battletech compendium, and the total warfare book show multi barrel weapons. This would suggest relatively low mass projectiles, but in a high volumn.
In most of the videogames however, dipict short burst of high mass projectiles.
Just observations.

[Gigaton]

Mike Silva, on 13 May 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

I think it should be noted that a shell is different from a bullet in that a shell is designed to carry a payload (HEAT, Sabot, etc) and a bullet is not.

Technically, sabot is a type of shot, not a shell. Shot is the term used (at least in US parlance) for large caliber solid projectiles with no explosive filler (rather like bullets that small arms use).

[Vashts1985]

the definition of automatic in relation to guns means automatic loading of ammunition. semi automatic meaning single shot per trigger pull, fully automatic meaning multiple shots as long as the trigger is held.

however

autocannons do exist and are large caliber rapid (or relatively rapid) fire machine guns capable of fully automatic fire.

after reading the Sarna definition it sounds like the term autocannon is a bit more broad in scope and literally is used to describe any large caliber weapon capable of rapid (or relatively rapid) fire, regardless if it has a semi automatic or fully automatic action.

it also further specifies that auto cannon designs are not standardized, and that the numbers relate to its effective damage.

basically a AC5 manufactured by one company may fire fully automatic with a high rate of fire, though with a smaller caliber, doing low damage per shot, while another company's AC5 may fire semi automatic with a low rate of fire, though with a bigger caliber capable of doing more damage per shot.

[Mike Silva]

Gigaton, on 13 May 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Technically, sabot is a type of shot, not a shell. Shot is the term used (at least in US parlance) for large caliber solid projectiles with no explosive filler (rather like bullets that small arms use).

I got my information from here...

http://en.wikipedia....iscarding-sabot

...and didn't see any reason to believe that it was incorrect. As I'm not a subject matter expert, I'm inclined to believe that the people who collected the references and built the page knew what they were talking about.

[Mike Silva]

I want to make sure I'm perfectly clear in what I'm saying.... that the Sabot is the payload being delivered by way of shell, through a cannon. I'm not saying that Sabot and shell are the same thing.

*edit* - at least that's what Wikipedia is leading me to believe. If you have other information I'll happily be reeducated.

Edited by Mike Silva, 13 May 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[Arbhall Sommers]

Mike Silva, on 13 May 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

I want to make sure I'm perfectly clear in what I'm saying.... that the Sabot is the payload being delivered by way of shell, through a cannon. I'm not saying that Sabot and shell are the same thing.

*edit* - at least that's what Wikipedia is leading me to believe. If you have other information I'll happily be reeducated.

The russians made a rifle in the 70s that fired flechettes in a sabot type system. It was not pushed into development but a bunch are kicking around. It was supposed to be a weapon for frogmen.
Dunno why i threw that in there, just silly trivia. Check it out.

http://en.wikipedia....r_Assault_Rifle

[Gigaton]

Mike Silva, on 13 May 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

I got my information from here...

That Wiki page also notes that sabot is more properly termed shot. In practise, APFSDS are usually called simply projectiles or penetrators, or round or cartridge for projectile, casing and propellant as a whole.

Or just hop over here and take glance at the WW2 era 6 pounder anti-tank gun's complement of solid AP shot and HE shells: http://en.wikipedia....nder#Ammunition

AP shells of various types exist as well, though not sure if 6 pounder ever had any in testing.

Edited by Gigaton, 13 May 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[Mike Silva]

Gigaton, on 13 May 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

That Wiki page also notes that sabot is more properly termed shot. In practise, APFSDS are usually called simply projectiles or penetrators, or round or cartridge for projectile casing and propellant as a whole.

Or just hop over here and take glance at the WW2 era 6 pounder anti-tank gun's complement of solid AP shot and HE shells: http://en.wikipedia....nder#Ammunition

AP shells of various types exist as well, though not sure if 6 pounder ever had any in testing.

Well fair enough.... but consider this.... shot is what is commonly put inside a shotgun shell. In the terminology I'm throwing around, shot would be considered the payload.

I think we've beaten this horse to death and we're in violent agreement.

[Arbhall Sommers]

Mike Silva, on 13 May 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Well fair enough.... but consider this.... shot is what is commonly put inside a shotgun shell. In the terminology I'm throwing around, shot would be considered the payload.

I think we've beaten this horse to death and we're in violent agreement.

LOL I agree

[Mike Silva]

Yeah, clearly this is an area where the semantics is uh.... not standardized?

[Vashts1985]

im not sure i understand. a Sabot is a device that is designed to carry a projectile smaller than the bore of the gun that it is going to be fired from.

there is not alot of grey area there.

[Mike Silva]

Vashts1985, on 13 May 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

im not sure i understand. a Sabot is a device that is designed to carry a projectile smaller than the bore of the gun that it is going to be fired from.

there is not alot of grey area there.

After looking at the Wiki page again it appears as though there's more than one way to deliver a Sabot round. A shell is one of them.

http://en.wikipedia....iscarding_sabot

[Gigaton]

If you mean the method as depicted on the diagram on that page, that's more or less how 6 pounder's "Shot, APDS, Mk 1T" works, just without the fins to stablize the thing (APDS tended to be on the inaccurate side due to that).

Edited by Gigaton, 14 May 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Mike Silva]

They fire something that looks similar through the 120 mm mounted on the M1A1, and I'm guessing other tanks using the same main gun are capable of firing them as well. Although those Sabot rounds are fin stabilized.

[Vashts1985]

i think whats tripping you up is the namenclature. consider it this way, the APDS you linked is a Armor piercing projectile encased in a discarding sabot. the round itself is not a sabot, it uses a sabot.

i highly reccomed visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot

i hope that makes my point a bit more clear.

[Gwydion fab Don]

I'm surprised no one has thought to reference the bastion of Western knowledge:

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Autocannon

[Mike Silva]

Vashts1985, on 14 May 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

i think whats tripping you up is the namenclature. consider it this way, the APDS you linked is a Armor piercing projectile encased in a discarding sabot. the round itself is not a sabot, it uses a sabot.

i highly reccomed visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot

i hope that makes my point a bit more clear.

Sure, but there's a reason why the authors of the 'Shell' Wiki article chose to include sabot on that page.

As I see it there's the projectile, mounted in a discarding sabot; that sabot is what completely exits the barrel once the round is fired, once the entire assembly exits the barrel the sabot/projectile assembly separates, and what's left after the round is fired is the shell that the entire assembly was housed in. That spent shell is pulled out of the barrel (or ejected automatically), and another shell is then fed to the cannon.

I think we're both right on this, it's just that we seem to not be synced up.

[Gigaton]

Mike Silva, on 14 May 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

and what's left after the round is fired is the shell that the entire assembly was housed in.

That's the cartridge case. It's cartridge case even for traditional HE round. The shell is the part that is shot out of the barrel.

Mike Silva, on 14 May 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Sure, but there's a reason why the authors of the 'Shell' Wiki article chose to include sabot on that page.

They included APCR/HVAP too. Unlike sabot, APCR had no sheath or similar discarding component. Neither did they have explosve fillers.

Anyway, I think this semantic threadhijack has gone far enough.

Edited by Gigaton, 14 May 2012 - 09:20 AM.