111 replies to this topic

[80Bit]

After reading various posts, on various topics, I notice a common theme repeated (by team players) that I would like to debunk. I play matches while I work so I end up playing PUG games almost exclusively. After 200+ PUG matches since open beta start, I have found the following about PUG players.

Contrary to popular opinion, the average PUG player is not:

Argumentative.
Terrible at the game.
Unwilling to follow orders.
A suicide farmer.


And while your first thought may be "No way, they are those things, I see it all the time!", your conclusion is not correct.

This is because every PUG game you play, you will see 1-2 players that fits one of the criteria above. The other 6-7 people on the team are none of those things. But human nature causes us to notice and remember atypical things, they stand out to us. So as a PUG player, over time, even though you only encounter someone who suicide farms perhaps once in every three games (1 player in 24) you feel like you encounter it all the time.

And if you are a team player, you will get lots of kills and do great compared to the enemy PUGers and your PUG team mates, leading you to perhaps conclude they are terrible at the game, when in fact, the mere act of sticking with 3 other people will lead to a very lopsided victory almost independent of player skill.


I only felt like posting this because so many people in discussions seem to write off PUG players as "not really playing the game", and that they should thus not be considered when it comes to mech design, weapon balance and so on. The fact is, that as a free to play game, PUG players are actually the main players, and will become more so as time goes on. World of Tanks is a good example of this. While their are plenty of team players, the primary bulk of matches happen between PUGs.

MWO is a team game, but it is also a PUG team game, and everyone should understand that when talking about the game in general.

[Zeh]

15% is still a lot... and if it's 2/7, that's almost a third... And when you know 100% of the people on teamspeak aren't doing these things... It makes pugs seem glaringly bad on average. Even if only 5-10% of them are horribad game ruiners, it lowers the average skill to meh at best.

Edited by Zeh, 30 November 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

I've had the pleasure to play with many players, groups and pugs alike, who have bene excellent players (or at least good sports!). Teammates who listen and cooperate, opponents who are generous with advice, and players enjoying a match even fi it ends in defeat.

Unfortunately we've all had matches turn sour because of farmers, morons, whiners, and more.

[Sevaradan]

80Bit, on 30 November 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Argumentative.
Terrible at the game.
Unwilling to follow orders.

I disagree. However, you are right probably at least 51% of pugs aren't suicide/afk farmers

[Vlad Ward]

1 bad experience with PUG players in 10 matches is more than enough to ruin the experience for the average person and ruin their perception of every PUG.

That's the consequence of playing with completely random, faceless crowds of people that you'll probably never see again.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 30 November 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Sevaradan]

Vlad Ward, on 30 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

1 bad experience with PUG players in 10 matches

It's much higher than 10%

Edited by Sevaradan, 30 November 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Sevaradan, on 30 November 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

It's much higher than 10%

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt

[Tastian]

80Bit, on 30 November 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

This is because every PUG game you play, you will see 1-2 players that fits one of the criteria above. The other 6-7 people on the team are none of those things.

It's those 1-2 people that ruin it. Those 1-2 people cause imbalance which oftentimes swing the battle into the opposing teams favor. But for those 6-7 people in a PUG that are good players more often then not there is no communication. And so you see people pairing off and running in different directions. Also, in PUGs you see more trial mechs.

[Sevaradan]

Vlad Ward, on 30 November 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt

Long ago gave that up

[Enigmos]

80Bit, on 30 November 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

...
And if you are a team player, you will get lots of kills and do great compared to the enemy PUGers and your PUG team mates, leading you to perhaps conclude they are terrible at the game, when in fact, the mere act of sticking with 3 other people will lead to a very lopsided victory almost independent of player skill...

To a large extent I agree with your findings, but in this paragraph you say something I don't buy.

Even given that I am human and the exceptional stands out in memory enhanced over the normal, still it is fact that many new players are hopelessly inept at weapon control, target acquisition, effective torso facing, and heat management. Success on the battlefield in MWO has very little to do with sticking together when each is shut down overheated, shooting each other more than the red opponent an snow banks more often than that, or running off map while looking back at their backtrail wondering why the world is moving away from them..

Edited by OriginalTibs, 30 November 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Tastian, on 30 November 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

It's those 1-2 people that ruin it. Those 1-2 people cause imbalance which oftentimes swing the battle into the opposing teams favor. But for those 6-7 people in a PUG that are good players more often then not there is no communication. And so you see people pairing off and running in different directions. Also, in PUGs you see more trial mechs.

This too.

All it takes is 1 bad egg to screw over a match.

[AvatarofWhat]

80Bit, on 30 November 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Contrary to popular opinion, the average PUG player is not:

Argumentative.
Terrible at the game.
Unwilling to follow orders.
A suicide farmer.

I'll agree with argumentative, unwilling to follow orders, and a suicide farmer, but lets be realistic. Your average PUG is bad in this game. What else explains the constant steam rolling? I'm not that great at this game and I play with 12 fps on average, but still manage to kill an average of 1-4 players per game. Still seems like a steamroll 3/4 games. The other games I get overconfident and make noob mistakes against seasoned players because I half-expect everyone on the other team to suck. Or they just outplay me. That happens too.

Don't get me wrong, just because your in a premade does not mean your good at this game either. I could name a few merc corps that I've steamrolled just as easily but thats not necessary, I was probably facing their less skilled players. My point is that the average pug skill level is way low compared to many premade players because premades help each other learn2play better. Pugs find everything out the hard way. Like a said some merc corps don't care who join and are filled with incompetent players. The Antares Scorpions has its share of less skilled players. We are not elitist, just committed to being damn good. But since we are no longer openly recruiting I've been noticing an improvement in the skill of our less talented players as we constantly give them advice and they learn from watching us play from the death cam. A tight knit premade's skill level will always be way better then the average pugs.

[Pugastrius]

I think the biggest misconception is that the average PuG is bad.
By definition, the Average pug is... Average.

Thus, if you were to completely remove the pre-mades then the average pug will win half of their matches and will lose half of their matches. Moreover, the average PuG will have a kill ratio darn close to 1:1

The problem is that the average PuG is considerably worse than the average Pre-made. It may not even be that the average premade player is better. It's simply that the advantage of focusing down a target has a compounding effect and it's much much easier for a pre-made to focus fire. If 4 people that focus fire go up against 4 people that don't,the 4 people that focus will kill the entire opposing force before having a single casualty.

As such, if you have a win/loss ratio well above 50/50 don't convince yourself it's personal skill. It's probaby just because you've been playing in a Pre-made.

Edited by Pugastrius, 30 November 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Bad assumption.

Just because the average K/D ratio is, by definition, 1, does not mean that the average player has a K/D ratio of 1.

A small number of players with K/D ratios in the hundreds are going to push the average player's K/D ratio down below 1.

[Sevaradan]

no the averagely skilled players, when looking at the MWO player base as a whole, are the poorly skilled end of the premade demographic, leaving the average pug significantly below average

now if you are talking about the averagely skilled pugs looking only at the pug demographic only then would average pugs be average.

[SpiralRazor]

"Terrible at the game"



The other ones are false, but this is usually true...Ive spectated enough games to see umm...interesting gameplay.

[Lefty Lucy]

My friends list, and thus the people I group with regularly, is full of people who I met PUGging. There are *lots* of PUG players who relish the thought of team play, and if you put even a minimum of effort into it they will be incredibly grateful and want to continue to play with you.

[Pugastrius]

Quote

A small number of players with K/D ratios in the hundreds are going to push the average player's K/D ratio down below 1.

I think you are wildly over-estimating the potential K/D ratio of players if Pre-mades didn't exist.

[AvatarofWhat]

Pugastrius, on 30 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

I think the biggest misconception is that the average PuG is bad.
By definition, the Average pug is... Average.

Thus, if you were to completely remove the pre-mades then the average pug will win half of their matches and will lose half of their matches. Moreover, the average PuG will have a kill ratio darn close to 1:1

The problem is that the average PuG is considerably worse than the average Pre-made. It may not even be that the average premade player is better it's that the advantage of focusing down a target has a compounding effect. If 4 people that focus fire go up against 4 people that don't,the 4 people that focus will kill the entire opposing force before having a single casualty.

As such, if you have a win/loss ratio well above 50/50 don't convince yourself it's personal skill. It's probaby just because you've been playing in a Pre-made.

I'm not going to lie and say I'm not better then I was when I used to pug. At first I thought it was all teamwork. Now when I pug I tend to personally do almost as well, whether my team loses or not. I found out playing with more skilled players consistently raised my personal skill level.

EX. I dropped with my premade and they failed to find match but i was dropped with 4 other randoms in a 5 vs 8. 2 kills. 500 or so damage.

my average kills per match with that mech: 2 kills. average damage with that mech: 500.

No observable change. Conclusion: Average pugs suck.

So many times I see pugs not even break 50 damage.... in an atlas... in a brawl. It's painful to watch. Firing LRM's point blanks, SRM's at 500 meters...

[Vlad Ward]

Pugastrius, on 30 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

I think you are wildly over-estimating the potential K/D ratio of players if Pre-mades didn't exist.

Pre-mades do exist. So do K/D ratios in the hundreds.

Wild hypotheticals are useless. As the game stands now, the average player is not average skilled.