111 replies to this topic

[Etrigan]

PUGs exist. Accept it and help them learn. L33t mentality helps no one. If you want the majority of the players to be viable and you are already at what you consider a better then average level of skill, help them. Give them advice as you play. One or two comments in team chat can sometimes give a relatively sucky PUG an epiphony on how to play better.

I accept that I'm very average at this game, even below average probably. But I've been playing multi-player games since they were first conceived and I've come to accept my own and my fellow player's skill limitations. I strive to make others a little better rather than ridiculing them, bullying them and dismissing them. If somehow you cannot do that, then that is YOUR limitation, not theirs. They WANT to get better, play better, have fun, kill big stompy robots, just like you.

[Bully_Hayes]

What a load of elitest B.S !!!!! Where do all you super stars figure on getting your future team mates from ?? Ya going to pick them off of trees or what ?? This kind of crap hurts the community you propose to support worse then anything PGI could possibly screw up with this game. Community being the key word without out it this game goes into the toilet regardless of what PGI does. ..........If PGI fails to get things sorted out with the game and the match making you children can all pat your selves on the back and tell the rest of us how stupid we were..If they do get it sorted out and the player numbers aren't here you people will have a share in the responsibility for that. You folks are short on ears and long on mouth !!

[Strikhedonia]

LordBraxton, on 30 November 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Strange, I ran into my unit mates 3 out of 5 games last night, and run into the same names all the time.

It doesn't bother me, and that being said we have about 100 actives right now and I was playing during peak hours.

I run into familiar faces all the time. We trade barbs and joke around during the prelim, then set about killing one another. Or rather, they set about killing me, since I suck in solo. Hell, I'm pretty sure you've killed me a handful of times.

[Sevaradan]

Etrigan, on 30 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

PUGs exist. Accept it and help them learn.

yes, we know the pug scum exists (got shot in the back by one last match...)

no, its not my job to teach them (unless they join my unit, and end up in my lance...)

Paladin851, on 30 November 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

What a load of elitest B.S !!!!! Where do all you super stars figure on getting your future team mates from ??

I don't know or really care where they come from until they are assigned to my BN, at that point their existence as anything other than a self propelled target begins matter to me

If we "elitists" kill MWO I'm fine with that at least that, at least it means it didn't get ruined by catering to casuals and pugglings. Better a dead game than a ****** one.

Edited by Sevaradan, 30 November 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Etrigan]

Well, Sev. Every time you drop, they are in your unit and end up in your lance. Or didn't you notice that?

[Guido]

This whole misconception is just as much the fault of PuG players as it is team players. Who fired the first shots, I don't know, but I know that when it was allowed to run in 8 man groups, it was Premade this and Premade that. When the devs turned around and limited the groups to 4 man, it was PuG this and PuG that. Neither side is innocent of flaming the forums with complaints about the other.

I've run into good random players just dropping, but the real complaint, is that the Teams, who had been up to this point able to play together, are now having to drop with random people. In my experience playing this game, I've found that every single time I drop into this game with my 4 man teams, either I end up with another team of grouped up players or I find myself with at least one AFK player or Suicide player. Both AFKers and Emo players are random players that are causing irreparable harm to the game's player base, because they create a deficit in the balance of the fight, and it can cause losses to a new player that watches them do this.

Grouped up players don't tend to AFK or suicide drop. the majority of PuG players don't either. But the fact of the matter is that a vast number of them do, even if it isn't the majority, and we all see that. Include the new players in there, and you create a game that has 1 suicide rusher or AFKer, 1 new guy who doesn't yet understand the game, 1 guy who's in a stock build trying to get to a decent build, one good PuG player, and a group (I'm generalizing, but I'm hoping you can see the point of the issue you see complaints about).

Players who have joined a team and group up joined the group to play with people they know will have a medium of skill and communication, and won't suicide or walk away from the keyboard. Same with random people who spend the time to group up on a public server. They can rely on the group to help shoot at their opponents, relay information, and so on in a tactical manner. To take away the ability to have a full team of players that consistently do that is what is at the heart of the issue, and until they fix that problem, the community that spend the time to group up is tired of seeing people who do exactly that.

I know I'm fed up to the point where I record all my matches merely to report the people who violate this game like a priest does at a choir rehearsal for young boys.

Edited by Guido, 30 November 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[KingNobody]

Sevaradan, on 30 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

yes, we know the pug scum exists (got shot in the back by one last match...)

no, its not my job to teach them (unless they join my unit, and end up in my lance...)



I don't know or really care where they come from until they are assigned to my BN, at that point their existence as anything other than a self propelled target begins matter to me

So, you refuse to help anyone, despite the fact that that sort of attitude runs contrary to every system of ethics ever devised (except maybe Randian egoism, but that's more of an unethical system) and also flies in the face of the concept of enlightened self interest? That is truly sad, and you have larger problems than with whom you are grouped in a computer game.

[Etrigan]

exactly. Tremendous point King.

That type of extreme tribalism is what is destroying the Western World.

Edited by Etrigan, 30 November 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Kyrie]

A member of my unit made a very interesting observation the other night that kinda rocked me. In early Closed Beta, PuGs were indisputably the majority -- there were few VoIP servers, and the total numbers were in the low hundreds (say 200ish?) on a given prime-time night.

In this current Open Beta market there are now dozens of populated servers, with average numbers in the high hundreds, I'll make a wild guess of about 600.

If we assume the total number of average concurrent users in primetime is 2000 or so, my guess is that close to third or more are using voice comms now. Might even be much higher.

What is interesting to me is the likely possibility that this reflects the transformation of the playerbase from PuG to VoIP-based in a very short period of time. Player created units are rabidly recruiting in every match, and the PuGs are joining up. This is a viral phenomenon.

And it is accelerating.

PuGs are endangered. :-)

[BellatorMonk]

LordBraxton, on 30 November 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Strange, I ran into my unit mates 3 out of 5 games last night, and run into the same names all the time.

It doesn't bother me, and that being said we have about 100 actives right now and I was playing during peak hours.

I gotta ask what unit you are that has 100 active members at this point in OB and are online in that many numbers grouped up? I should be seeing that unit's name mentioned in at least 1 out of 20 drops and/or you all would be dropping against each other quite a bit I would think.

[BellatorMonk]

KingNobody, on 30 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

So, you refuse to help anyone, despite the fact that that sort of attitude runs contrary to every system of ethics ever devised (except maybe Randian egoism, but that's more of an unethical system) and also flies in the face of the concept of enlightened self interest? That is truly sad, and you have larger problems than with whom you are grouped in a computer game.

The problem is there is no time to "help" puggers during a match. The chat system sucks especially if you are dead and giving directions and pointers on mech usage/build, etc and the myriad of other thing that should be common to any decent gamer is simply just not the "better" gamer's problem to solve.

If these terrible players really want to get better they would read the forums to garner game tips, join a unit, pony up some cash to buy a Founder's or Premium time package and use decent mech and tactics, etc, etc.

The simple fact is most of the crappy players are casual F2Pers who have little interest in improving their "game" and make the regular to hardcore player's game a terrible tactical "team" based experience.

I mean let's put it down as fact...almost all the crappy players you see listed in a loss are F2P accounts. I rarely ever see a Founder/premium score on the board that is crap. Crap being 100 or less damage and zero kills.

Now that is not to say there are not any good F2Pers out there. I can say I have seen F2Pers post some great numbers/wins etc and guess what....almost ALL of those guys are in a PREMADE...see the correlation?

[Etrigan]

While I agree that the chat system sucks, there is in fact a minimum of 20-60 seconds at the start of every match while teams are dropping that could be utilized for education/suggestion. Arguably 90% of the time I drop into a group (with or without a 4-man Pre) no one types anything useful (really, GL-HF is useful?). Also, constructive comments could certainly be given if your sitting in purgatory post-death and actually watching people make mistakes you could help correct.

I can't tell you how much I've learned from watching better players after I make a newbie cockup and died.

[KingNobody]

You are missing the point of my post. It is precisely those "crappy" players that need help the most, and I believe it is the duty of all players to foster them. If we want this community to grow and this game to thrive, we must render assistance to those who may not know that LRMs don't track at close range, or have no concept of heat management. Improving their game experience will directly improve ours, and that leads us back to the concept of enlightened self-interest.

[Strikhedonia]

BellatorMonk, on 30 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

I gotta ask what unit you are that has 100 active members at this point in OB and are online in that many numbers grouped up? I should be seeing that unit's name mentioned in at least 1 out of 20 drops and/or you all would be dropping against each other quite a bit I would think.

Notice he just mentioned that it occurred last night, not every day. Last weekend we had 40+ actives in TeamSpeak alone and our 4-man groups were crossing paths all the time.

Two nights ago there was a lonewolf player who found himself opposing our 4-man group three games in a row.

I see players from Death's Hand and Eridani Light Pony every single day. I'm sure there are members of both who can attest to seeing members of Windbourne with the same regularity.

[BellatorMonk]

Sarah McCallum, on 30 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Notice he just mentioned that it occurred last night, not every day. Last weekend we had 40+ actives in TeamSpeak alone and our 4-man groups were crossing paths all the time.

Two nights ago there was a lonewolf player who found himself opposing our 4-man group three games in a row.

I see players from Death's Hand and Eridani Light Pony every single day. I'm sure there are members of both who can attest to seeing members of Windbourne with the same regularity.

I see. Don't take the question the wrong way. I am just interested to see how many people some of the larger units have and play each night. When I see people with such large numbers and theoretically all grouped up in 4 man teams and they are crossing each other frequently it begs the questions of how many people are actually online in MWO and if the match system is really doing a decent job of matching groups on groups or groups on pugs for example.

[Vlad Ward]

KingNobody, on 30 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

You are missing the point of my post. It is precisely those "crappy" players that need help the most, and I believe it is the duty of all players to foster them. If we want this community to grow and this game to thrive, we must render assistance to those who may not know that LRMs don't track at close range, or have no concept of heat management. Improving their game experience will directly improve ours, and that leads us back to the concept of enlightened self-interest.

You could spend the entire match sitting at base trying to convey as much useful information to the rest of your team as possible (and it would take a lot longer than 15 minutes to type out everything a new player could stand to learn about this game) and repeat the process ad infinitum.

Or, you could just play the game and encourage those players who want to learn more about it to join a corps or start reading the forums.

Note: The former is a much safer bet than the latter. You would not believe how often I see veteran, founder posters with 2000+ postcounts putting straight-up wrong information on the forums.

[Vexgrave Lars]

I was part of a big group..I left because real life was getting in the way.. and they were good guys and would never behave like this at least not the ones I know.

The preference many have is to play as a team, with people they know.. no problem with preferences. More over if your playing with friends, people you know, more power to you. Feel fortunate, but not better than everyone else for it.

Its kinda impractical to think that every Pug Match or Pugger that ends up on your side is going to make for a bad game.
Its not elitist, its ignorant. Elitist implies the potential of individual superiority, there is no such potential here.

Teamwork is easy when you can plan for 30 hours and build mechs that compliment each other, winning like that is easy.

Being tossed in the arena with what you have and winning, that's quick thinking, skill, communication and coordination. Get good at that, and you'll always do well, regardless what the guy next to you has. You learn to adapt.

Coming from both sides of that fence. Play the game to your preference and take each match win and loss for the experience it is. But be wary of pointing fingers at fellow players, pug or not. Later on You might regret missing a chance to make a friend or ally.

No matter how bad I do pugging, I have never and will never point my finger at others for a loss, excluding farmers, insert descriptive colorful metaphor here. If you dropped with 4 premade and 4 pugs, your 4 on voice and your side lost, well then your "team" is responsible for half the loss at least. no matter if the noob in the Jenner pilot didn't scout the way YOU wanted him to.

Some might blame the noob..
I say..

You failed to communicate.. you failed to command.. you failed to work as a greater unit with the tools you were given.
You were too focused on YOUR win, and lost the match because of it, you were unable to adapt and properly manage the assets you had.

Perspective is everything, and that is how you place blame.

Can't we all just shoot each other and get along.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 30 November 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Strikhedonia]

BellatorMonk, on 30 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

I see. Don't take the question the wrong way. I am just interested to see how many people some of the larger units have and play each night. When I see people with such large numbers and theoretically all grouped up in 4 man teams and they are crossing each other frequently it begs the questions of how many people are actually online in MWO and if the match system is really doing a decent job of matching groups on groups or groups on pugs for example.

That depends on the time of day. Windbourne, Eridani Light, Death's Hand, and the Goons account for hundreds of players, not all of whom are on TeamSpeak or in a group. During the weekend at peak hours each group is going to be saturating the game. That's when we'll encounter one another most often.

Don't assume that they're all dropping in groups. We'll regularly have folks on Teamspeak who are working on new builds and dropping solo. So do the other groups. Sometimes there will be a two-man group working on tactics, or a 4-man group dropping normally. We're not always massing together.

[HighTest]

It's tough being a PUG.

Sure. I'm more than capable of doing 400+ damage and getting 2-3 kills a game with a Centurion (custom, mind you). But just as often I end up running into a skirmish to back up a group of mechs only to watch them turn tail and run leaving me to the mercy of 3 or 4 opponents. Can't say if they were PUGs or even a pre-made, but I sure didn't get a fall back order.

The problem is as a PUG there is NO ability for communication. The 10 or 30 seconds before the match starts? Barely enough to blurt out a coarse strategy. Mid-match? Hey, if I had the time to type in chat mid-match, I'd be dead and/or being useless.

It's simple. PUGs can't communicate. Pre-made teams can. It's an immediate and massive advantage to know what the others are doing.

Sure, some PUGs intentionally DC. Some blow themselves up. Some outright grief. I'm not defending them in any way.

But the problem is some PUGs are new and can't play. And there really isn't a good way to teach them in real-time.

WoW implemented in-game chat a couple of years back. Sure, it was no Ventrilo or TeamSpeak, but it was better than a kick to the groin. And it might help people get up to speed on the game. Or consider having a countdown longer than 10 seconds so a quick strategy can be hashed out. Or both, even.

Hey, anyone need a PUG some nights around 9pm EST? I can snipe, LRM boat, brawl... I just don't do lights and I don't scout...

Edited by HighTest, 30 November 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Sevaradan]

Etrigan, on 30 November 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Well, Sev. Every time you drop, they are in your unit and end up in your lance. Or didn't you notice that?

nope, I only drop premade. I may be forced to have 4 in the same drop as me but they are not in the unit I run with or in the lance I drop with.