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Is There Still A Place For 'casual' Voicecomm Groups?


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#1 MuonNeutrino

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

tl;dr - unorganized 'pick-up' teamspeak groups don't match up well against *either* pugs or competitive premades, and I'm worried about not having a good way to get into games with a reasonably well matched opposing team with 8v8 the way it is.

Often the game population is perceived as being made up of two monolithic, polarized blocks - the 'pubbies' and the 'premades'. What is good for the one is bad for the other, and vice versa. However, as usual in life, each side is more complicated than that, and I've become a bit concerned about the fate of a group of people who are kinda neither fish nor fowl in that respect. Namely, the casual, 'pick-up premade' - a group of people who want to try to work with their team and play smart, but who aren't part of an organized, coordinated 'clan' or 'guild' and who therefore come together on an impromptu, ad-hoc basis someplace like the public Comstar teamspeak server. The problem is that these sort of groups occupy a space somewhere in between the pure 'pubbies' and pure 'premades'.

These groups will often be more tactical and teamwork-minded than most lone-wolf 'pubbies' by nature, as it is often those qualities that drive them to join groups in the first place. And, of course, being on voicecomms all by itself is enough to give a significant advantage over less coordinated teams. On the other hand they lack the sort of finely-meshed coordinated strategies, tactics, maneuvers, and team compositions that full-on competitive clans/guilds/units/whatever-you-want-to-call-thems generally bring to the field. And not because they're necessarily worse players (though highly competitive teams will of course often have the skill advantage as well due to much greater experience and investment in the game), but simply because of the fact that by definition they've only been playing with this particular set of teammates for a couple hours at most. Because of the way they choose to play the game, they simply haven't had any chance to evolve the sort of coordinated tactics/etc used by competitive teams, since those demand not only skill but practice *as a team*.

The problem is that such groups don't match up well against *either* lone wolves or the competitive premades. As has been long known, pretty much any group of reasonably competent players on voicecomm will usually wipe the floor with most random groups of lone wolves. At the same time, though, once both sides are on voice the experience and practiced/coordinated strategies, builds, tactics, and maneuvers of a true competitive team give almost as much advantage as the simple use of voicecomm provides in a pug game.

This seems to me to have lead to this sort of group being rather left behind by the return of 8v8 drops. And as I'm sure you've guessed by now, this isn't simply an academic exercise for me, as this is exactly the group of players I identify with. The problem is, at the moment I don't see a very good way to actually get in on reasonably well balanced games in this sort of team.

In the 4-man era this sort of group was pretty good for getting into fun, fairly well balanced games. You were highly likely to still have 4 random players on your side in addition to your team, so you generally weren't about to take 8 mechs and stomp all over the other side in unison. You also often had another 4 man on the other team to face who had the same limitations, and seemed to have a pretty good chance of also being the same sort of impromptu 'pick-up premade' (and even if they weren't, the presence of lone wolves on each team seemed to have a significant diluting effect). In other words, games were often the perfect balance of coordination and disorganization for this sort of team to thrive and get into plenty of exciting, hard fought, and close games.

Note I am specifically *not* complaining that 'wah, we can't stomp pugs anymore'. While it is true that my own personal W:L ratio was significantly above 1 during this period, I personally don't really care that much about that. What I do care about is being able to get into fun, closely fought matches, and that's what I had. There were certainly the usual fraction of base trades or 8-0 or 8-1 roflstomps in there (and going both ways, I may add), but most of them tended to be hard-fought games that ended with only 2 or 3 mechs left on the field.

This has *not* been my experience with 8v8 drops. Some fraction of them we seem to be matched up against a similar team, but it seems to be *far* less frequent than with 4 man groups, and even then the games tend to be more lopsided one way or the other (though *that* might just be the influence of ECM). And the rest of the time we've been matched up against obvious coordinated competitive groups (teams made up entirely of D-DCs/dakkaphracts/dual gauss or ac20 cats of both kinds/similar tweaked builds/ecm fast-movers are kinda a giveaway), and at the end I'm left wondering why we even bothered playing the match in the first place. There doesn't seem to be any particular route to be competitive in such cases, as what's providing the advantage in this case is inherent to the differences in structure between the two teams - the sort of practiced coordination that comes from playing in a dedicated, standing competitive group. Again, this is not meant to be a complaint about getting stomped - sometimes that just happens - but rather an observation that playing in the 8v8 queue really doesn't seem to be a place where I can find fun matches, since I'm not interested in joining a competitive group.

On top of that, so far my time spent trying to do 8v8s has been something like 70% standing around trying to organize, 30% actually in-game, rather than the 20% standing around/80%ish playing ratio it was before. Again, this is something that would be much less of a problem for a standing group, but for me it's been rather an impediment to fun. On the other hand, the non-8v8 games seem to have gotten much more chaotic, probably because so many groups have decamped for 8v8s. Either way, especially with the addition of ECM, the regular queue isn't really as attractive right now either.

Mind you, I don't want to take anything away from all of the competitive groups that have been anxiously waiting for the return of 8v8 drops. I understand how bad the 4 man limitation has been for you, and I'm glad that you once more have the option to play the game in a format that suits you. It's a *good* thing that this option is back, because the competitive gamers are a critical slice of the player base, the one that really pushes the envelope. But you have to admit that there's a heck of a lot of you coming out of the woodwork to drop into the 8v8 queue now that it's back, and it's not turning out very fun from my end.

I personally believe that this sort of playstyle should be a legitimate choice, that it ought to be possible to try to play smart without the commitment of joining a competitive group. It is my hope that when we get a more sophisticated matchmaking system there'll be an appropriate niche for us, but at this point I'm not sure where I'm supposed to go to find good games against a similar caliber of opposition, and this worries me.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 05 December 2012 - 05:36 PM.


#2 Pancakeman

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

I've had great success with Teamspeak. I've made quite a few friends and you learn one anothers play styles. On a normal basis, our 4 mans stomped PUGs and other 4 man pre-mades.

#3 Uller Phrost

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

would have to agree. Though I would not give the Guildraid type that much credit for skill. most the TP lonewolves have worked in enough groups to know each other as the broader community. The tactics per map are very limited. That being said with the return of 8v8 and the ECM its a total wipe fest. the Heaviest or highest BV wins every time now. There is no ranged game right now its 100m shoulder to shoulder walking fire. speaking as public server after 6 straight loses from not having 5 Assults per we all logged for the night. Its over in under 15s of engagement with other team every time. I wouldn't call it focused fire more like Bizmark broadsides. Breaking down each of them I wouldn't say they are better pilots or better on TS. just wait until clan equipment. matches will last seconds not minutes.

What they are doing is dropping with better BUILD. not a fun build. Its stay with the herd and maybe live longer then the other team.

#4 themoob

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

Yeah, premade lone wolves have been left in the dirt.

#5 Pancakeman

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

It all boils down to coordination. I've been some 8 mans that are a total cluster. Noone leads, noone listens and everyone is running around. 8 man groups need to have a clear chain of command, and maybe one lance leader. If the group loses because of tactics, it falls on the shoulders of the commander.

#6 Matte Black

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:19 PM

Launch in group of less than 8 still viable for PuG on VoiP, is it not?

#7 Vlad Ward

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

You guys are SOL until Phase 3.

#8 zenstrata

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

This post is well thought out and makes several good points. I have thought about this myself over the last few weeks. When the cries of 'pugs' vs 'premades' and all the unfairness of it all started - I felt like something was off. I just had a hard time pinning down what it actually was, and I did not want to come down on one side or the other, because both had valid points.

Let me preface this next part with a statement which you can either take as true or not as you desire (although any developer could easily check for themselves and verify this with a few seconds effort). I am not what most would consider a 'bad' player. My current kill/death ratio is well over 10 to 1, wins/losses are currently around 1,100 wins/160 losses. I am also not a 'disconnector' I do not pad my stats with any underhanded techniques, and I play in both 'pugs' and 'premades' regularly.

The reason why I post this here is not to wave my e-peen about, but to make it clear that I really mean what I say in this next part - and it is not based on some misguided attempt to level the playing field in any fashion that might benefit me.

What it really boils down to is this - Mechwarrior Online is structured as competitive PVP game. In these sort of games you always have someone who wins, and someone who loses. I personally normally tend to like single player games because during those, no one else is getting hurt when I have my fun. The computer 'ai' does not care if it wins or loses. However when fighting against real life people they do care, sometimes quite a lot, about winning or losing regularly.

If you look at many other PVP oriented games, they rarely make distinctions about people playing in teams, or not playing in teams. They just toss everyone into the mix and let them fight it out. In these scenarios it allows people to team or not, as they desire, but tends to favor teamplay and cooperation as this often gives a bit of an edge to players who engage in that activity.

Unfortunately in both camps you will always have the lowest common denominator, that being the inexperienced players being stomped on by those with more experience or better tactics. And unfortunately this activity inevitably leads to new players feeling like they lose more often than they win.

The best solution I know of for this situation - is to implement some sort of game mechanic where players can fight against 'ai' enemies if they wish, then arrange it so those enemies tend to lose a bit more often than they win. This gives the players a sense of accomplishment as they can be successful in battle. While at the same time they can learn the skills needed to move into the PVP side eventually if they wish.

But I realize that may not be entirely possible here. Mechwarrior Online has been designed as a primarily PVP title. So someone must always be on the losing side of every battle. Another method which can help is by instituting some sort of system whereby the player can earn through experience or some sort of in-game income - items or skills attached to their character which may help give them an edge on the battlefield.

One other way to possibly solve this issue, is to give the players a world so incredibly massive that it allows players to fight over a diverse range of objectives at any particular moment. This means that if a player is feeling he is having a hard time in one battle, they can easily hop out and head to another objective which they feel might be less well defended, (or that they will have a better chance of winning). Planetside 2 seems to have managed this by making everyone fight on an absolutely massive world map. This lets players fight for a while in one battle, and leave for a completely new objective if they feel completely outmatched on their current one.

Perhaps the future content coming in Mechwarrior Online will find a way to resolve this issue for everyone involved.

#9 Nazira

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

To answer the OP's question...no, I think casual premades are not going to be viable in 8v8s. The truly gung-ho 8v8 players will be forming elite teams with relatively constant members who will develop seriously strong tactics, complementary Mech loadout configurations, tactical movement formations (e.g., echelon left/right, line abreast, etc.), rapid communications and target calling, and very efficient and accurate firing. Basically, this consists of a 8 heavy or assault mechs walking shoulder-to-shoulder under ECM and full AMS coverage marching straight to the enemy base. Their commander will call targets and they will all focus fire and drop each enemy mech within seconds. The ONLY way to hope to compete against this is to have a similar formation, at which point it just becomes a comm/click race knocking over dominoes and the last one standing wins. And, this will all occur very quickly, maximizing CBill and Exp earning per hour. Any casual premade groups going against this type of unit will be repeatedly slaughtered, which isn't fun, and they will stop queuing.

Taking it further, the old Premade vs. PUG elitism argument will now shift to be Clan Premade vs. Casual Premade (aka PUG premades). The Clan Premade "A" teams will enjoy the same high levels of Cbills, Exp, K/D and W/L ratios as in ye olde PUG stomping days, until the Casual Premades stop queuing. Then the elite Clan Premades will be facing off against each other, the Cbills, Exp, K/D and W/L ratios will return towards the 50% level, and they will eventually tire of the 8v8 group cluster focus-fire fights (or 8 man base sprint/cap runs).

This is not to say that people are right or wrong for preferring premade team play...to each his own. It is just that some people are ultracompetitive and they will seek out the absolute most efficient and effective tactics (cheesy or not) and run them repeatedly ad nauseum until a game balancing/nerf is implemented and new tactics are created, and the cycle repeats. It is similar to some of the PvP teams and talent specs in other MMOs like WoW. After dealing with the repetitive 8v8 tactics, elitism and drama, the unpredictability and variety of PUG playing may once again be appealing to some premade players.

Edited by Nazira, 05 December 2012 - 07:11 PM.


#10 Daekar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

You hit a subject near to my heart, and all the more because I've only had time for 3 pug matches since the patch. One we stomped them, one they completely demolished us (we had no ECM, they did, and an Awesome that could two-shot a Cataphract with LRMs), and the last was a good long brawl with lots of casualties. The last was the best even though I died.

I have no desire and will not ever have the desire to join one of these elite units where they tell you what mech and build to play. Not doing it. I don't mind pugging some of the time, but I REALLY REALLY enjoy my time with the guys on the EU TS3 server. In order for me to play long-term, PUG Premades on voice need to be viable. Period. If the game is about teamwork, then it should be possible to have a good time teaming informally. Without that, the PUGs are fine (or at least only being stomped by 4-mans), and 8-mans become another polarized group... hardcore and pugs with voice.

I'm going to give it a good try before calling gloom and doom... but Garth, if you read this, please note our concern (conveyed in a civil tone, not BB's whiny voice) that 8v8s may require additional balancing and that TTK seems to be dropping considerably under certain circumstances.

Can't wait for tomorrow to try it out! Almost have YLW mastered, and I have a shiney new Muro with my name just below the cockpit canopy... :)

#11 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

pfft just run premade 4 mans. they do just fine and make more money than 8 mans anyhow.

#12 Morrey

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:42 PM

Dude, how long did it take you to write that thing?

Read the "Pinned" forum topics, they are "Pinned" for a reason.

http://mwomercs.com/...e-chat-servers/

Recruiting: Royal Terra Guard (NGNG TS3 Server)

http://rtguard.guildlaunch.com

Edited by Morrey, 05 December 2012 - 08:45 PM.


#13 MuonNeutrino

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

It took me about an hour and a half. And I have to wonder what relevance that link has? I'm not talking about the difference being on voice comm makes. I *am* on those TS servers. I'm talking about the difference between a causal voicecomm group and a dedicated competitive one.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 05 December 2012 - 09:09 PM.


#14 Kobold

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

There will always be people at the bottom of the pile. If you split the people into two piles, there are now two bottoms of the pile.

Success?

#15 LarkinOmega

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

My group is exactly the same, a pug with voice comms. We have a couple of advantages over other groups though. First is that our pilots are all slightly above average, with a few good ones and a few poorer ones. The second is that we originate from an EVE community, so we're used to giving and following directions effectively. The third is that we always expect to go down in gloriously flaming ruin.

I typed all that to let you know that we have been doing well with the 8 man group dynamic. We've been winning about 50% of the time, and our loses have been due to piloting or command mistakes more than being outclassed by other teams. The meta game is new born at this point, so if the semi-casuals up and quit the 8 mans now, you'll never get better. Keep ploughing along, and if you see me out there, aim for my head. Cuts down on my repair costs.

#16 Morrey

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

View PostMuonNeutrino, on 05 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

It took me about an hour and a half. And I have to wonder what relevance that link has to anything. I'm not talking about the difference being on voice comm makes. I *am* on those TS servers. I'm talking about the difference between a causal voicecomm group and a dedicated competitive one. Maybe you should read the post? I even put a TL:DR for you.


My Bad, sorry
I thought you were yet another complaining pilot, saying you lost because the other team had comms.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with your premise. I've surfed through the groups looking for teams that are short a player or two and have dropped with some great guys. They all run things a little different and you just try to go with the flow and learn the system. Someday you might have to drop against them.

Usually they give the "Temp" a wide birth and are just glad to have the tonnage or another target for the enemy besides them. I've even had the situation of one of their team mates showing up late and I just bow out and thank them for the drops.

Personally I think it's all about learning to be a better pilot; because really, nobody wants to suck at anything. I learned a long time ago that if you want to get better, you don't train with people of lower or the same skill level, you look for someone better than you. You may learn a lot or a little from that person, you may learn what you like or don't like the command structure, who knows but if your open, watch and learn somethings going to stick, good or bad.

I'm not a great pilot by any means and the team I belong to knows it, I don't get any grief, we all play what we want and just try to make the best of what we have and have a good time.
I'm not sure how command is going to deal with Phase 3, community warfare or anything else in the future but for now we have weekly practices and pug together when we can. No pressure.

#17 Morrey

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostLarkinOmega, on 05 December 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

The third is that we always expect to go down in gloriously flaming ruin.

The meta game is new born at this point, so if the semi-casuals up and quit the 8 mans now, you'll never get better. Keep ploughing along, and if you see me out there, aim for my head. Cuts down on my repair costs.


I LIKE THIS GUY

#18 Kasiagora

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

I thought this was the purpose of these guys.
http://mwomercs.com/...ough-is-enough/
http://ronin-kensei.enjin.com/home
The second is their website, so it does direct away form the MW:O site, but it's safe. Rather, my merc corps is on an Enjin site and I've never had problems. This is just a disclaimer.

Now, I haven't knowingly played with the Lone Wolf Support Group so I don't know how it is first hand, but I think they were made for people who want to play casually with other casual players over voice coms and thereby have a little edge over other pugs. It's worth checking out.
As for myself I play in a unit that seems to be a lot of competitive people and from the occasional 8 man runs I've done with them, they're a more serious minded group. However I like to play pugs usually because I have to go to work, eat, date, hang out with friends, etc, and only want to do a couple of matches. In between the two vastly different styles of play that I do (and pugs is more common), I have 3 friends who I hang out with on Mumble and we did a 4 man group today. Since a couple of them are newer to MW:O and just got their first mechs it took a couple of games for us to start working well together, and a 3 or 4 man casual lance isn't going to win in these matches all on their own; but as we went on we stayed communicative with each other and let the other groups lead the way. Most of the 4 player pugs lately you can tell that a couple of the other players are doing their own thing and are probably in communication with each other. Rather than letting them go one way and us going another, we tagged along with them. Usually these small groups don't listen anyway and like to take the "commander" role in a pug, so it's best to let them. By having just one ECM Cicada in our group we were able to level the field against the enemies that had ECM, and by supporting others we were able to make a over a million and win most of our games. It was really only 3 or 4 rough matches before we started working well together and pulling our wins back into the positive. That's with one player I'm good friends with, one who I know and likes to do his own thing, and one who I've never played with before.

I hope what I've said here is in line with what you were looking for. That although I'm in a serious corp, being a casual player in one still works if that's the route you want to go, and forming a casual group can be competitive too in the smaller grouped matches. I hope the websites I linked help too, I honestly don't know if they will or not.

Edited by Kasiagora, 05 December 2012 - 09:55 PM.






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