3036 replies to this topic

[Serapth]

Para B, on 22 February 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

Drastically increase the ECM system's weight and crit slots. Reduce the possible firepower of light ECM mechs.

Problem solved.

ECM also needs to be toned back, it does way too many things right now, it should be three or four items, not one. There should also be a hard counter, BAP is a good candidate.

Any easy fix for streak problems is to make ECM take up 2-3 missile slots. No more streak-Ravens or stream Commandos if you do that, and it would actually be a burden to take one on a Atlas.


As it stands, ECM in this game was one of the most heavy handed ( and frankly, stupid ) design decisions I have ever seen implemented in a game, especially an MMO. The game is still playable with ECM in, but it's certainly worse for it.

[StalaggtIKE]

Serapth, on 22 February 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

As it stands, ECM in this game was one of the most heavy handed ( and frankly, stupid ) design decisions I have ever seen implemented in a game, especially an MMO. The game is still playable with ECM in, but it's certainly worse for it.

Within closed testing, I can see how ECM could have slipped through. The goal was to see if it was working and from a dev's pov, it was. However, after it went live it should have been obvious that something was wrong. I've written code before and just getting it to work is sometimes a triumph for a dev. I understand this. But you must consider your customers. Is it satisfying the needs of the intended user? As a customer, I hated being shot down by LRM, but I didn't want complete immunity either. I wanted to outsmart my enemy by my piloting skills, not because their radar no longer alerts them of my existence, like they're seeing ghosts.

For me, It's the way they have handled it, that is really poor. It seems, that they are willing to change any and everything in the game around ECM, just to keep from admitting they've made a mistake. Within a month there were plenty of inputs of things they could have done directly to ECM, in order to put it inline with the rest of the devices. However instead they've wasted time in tweaking this and adding that. By the time they finally come to the conclusion that ECM must be "fixed", this paired with all of the added "counters" will have ECM as too weak. I hope they stop with this nonsense and go ahead and properly tweak ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 February 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[WolvesX]

I think the tour will proof FINALY that ECM should get nerfed.

Edited by WolvesX, 23 February 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[MischiefSC]

WolvesX, on 23 February 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I think the tour will proof FINALY that ECM should get nerfed.

Here's the thing. If you look at how PGI talks about ECM it doesn't matter in the end. Clearly they are very invested in it working the way it works now. There has been a poll with over 1,000 people responding and the majority said that they hated it. Tons of well reasoned responses (and tons of crazy) are effectively met with 'you just don't understand'.

I do understand. I still strongly dislike it and I'm not alone. The way ECM is implemented makes the game considerably less enjoyable for me and I'm not alone. The solution is to say that there are other 'counters' like sensor range adjustments and how PPCs work and the like - which mean nothing what so ever and are in fact more like additional slaps in the face.

Why? Because what they really mean is 'You can learn to take ECM as it is....

or you can leave.'

ECM won't change. Not in any significant or meaningful way. Anyone who pugs needs to accept that they are here on sufferance and to provide content for organized team play. Integrated VOIP, even a lobby or other such features do absolutely nothing in any way to fix that.

So I tell my friends that it's an awesome game in a lot of ways but if you're not going competitive team play, well, don't get too invested. I've yet to be proven wrong in that assessment. Makes me a sad panda because I really want a solid MW game to play and enjoy and MWO is a brilliant game even in beta.

It just chooses to stuff a raised middle finger in my face every time I play and I pug and I'm not in a D-DC Atlas or even when I am and I'm not playing with pugs who are rock-solid at teamwork, or even if they are but we drop against a premade with VOIP and an ECM setup. The outcome of which.... well, sounds like I'm not alone with that either. New maps and mechs, Elo, they really polish the things that the game does well.

They don't fix the fact that ECM/missile balancing is broken.

Please fix it. Please.

Edited by MischiefSC, 23 February 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[riverslq]

well, i'm leaving, as in they're not getting any more of my money until it changes.
i'll play for free, cost them bandwidth, etc, whatever. but mc? premium? not until they fix this ecm mess they created.

[Vassago Rain]

Dear livejournal...

[StalaggtIKE]

MischiefSC, on 23 February 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

ECM won't change. Not in any significant or meaningful way. Anyone who pugs needs to accept that they are here on sufferance and to provide content for organized team play. Integrated VOIP, even a lobby or other such features do absolutely nothing in any way to fix that.

So I tell my friends that it's an awesome game in a lot of ways but if you're not going competitive team play, well, don't get too invested. I've yet to be proven wrong in that assessment. Makes me a sad panda because I really want a solid MW game to play and enjoy and MWO is a brilliant game even in beta.

It just chooses to stuff a raised middle finger in my face every time I play and I pug and I'm not in a D-DC Atlas or even when I am and I'm not playing with pugs who are rock-solid at teamwork, or even if they are but we drop against a premade with VOIP and an ECM setup. The outcome of which.... well, sounds like I'm not alone with that either. New maps and mechs, Elo, they really polish the things that the game does well.

They don't fix the fact that ECM/missile balancing is broken.

Please fix it. Please.

My exact sentiments as well. ECM, and currently ELO, all point to one thing; that you must play PGI's way if you want rewarding games. Their way being 4 man group over TS. All balance and game modes are being balanced around this pov. Prior to ECM one could organize a successful offense within pubs through chat alone. Apparently this got 4 man lances upset; that a "ragtag group" of strangers could come together, make a plan on the fly and execute. Thus outplaying whatever practiced strategies that these 4 man teams had put together. That's why you have those that defend ECM insistently. Of course you have the Bads that couldn't deal with LRM, but that's a given. 4 man pride was at stake and something had to be done. ECM kills non-verbal communication like nothing I've ever seen in a game.

[MischiefSC]

Vassago Rain, on 23 February 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Dear livejournal...

Nobody uses LJ anymore. It'll be on their facebook and tweets of 'I GOTTED ECMed TDAY. ;( '

StalaggtIKE, on 23 February 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

My exact sentiments as well. ECM, and currently ELO, all point to one thing; that you must play PGI's way if you want rewarding games. Their way being 4 man group over TS. All balance and game modes are being balanced around this pov. Prior to ECM one could organize a successful offense within pubs through chat alone. Apparently this got 4 man lances upset; that a "ragtag group" of strangers could come together, make a plan on the fly and execute. Thus outplaying whatever practiced strategies that these 4 man teams had put together. That's why you have those that defend ECM insistently. Of course you have the Bads that couldn't deal with LRM, but that's a given. 4 man pride was at stake and something had to be done. ECM kills non-verbal communication like nothing I've ever seen in a game.

That really is my issue. I don't care about how ECM counters LRMs. I never use them, never did, I'm at my best with direct fire weapons and I take probably 5% of my total damage from LRMs and get probably 10-20% of my kills from missileboats.

It's the total ECM package and the super ninja team stealth suit approach and the SuperUltraMegaMechaECM STACKING POWER GO!

It's broken.

Please fix it. Please.

Daeso, on 23 February 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Hmmm, I strictly play lights so I love reading topics where people cry NERF ECM. I do play a Raven 3L but I also play other lights. There is a huge gameplay difference when playing my Raven 3L then say one of my Jenners. I am definitely more bold when playing my 3L and I LOVE IT!!!! I'm not really sure how people see it as cheating.... PGI are the ones that gave me a mech of the 3Ls caliber, why should I have to switch to a different mech? How about you switch to direct fire weapons and then work on being accurate. I know, I know, someone is going to cry about lag shield next. I've been hit by plenty of direct fire weapons at 142.6kph so this argument imo is pretty invalid. Lock me up with tag from a far and lay in to me with LRMs (pry wouldn't work too well on me, I use cover rather well), use your teams lights to take me out instead of letting me eat your @holes out like a rabid hyena.... wait the hyena doesn't have to be rabid, what was I thinking.... Everyone needs to learn of ways to eliminate enemy players with ecm instead of immediately taking to the forums and crying like a (insert b-word). If you think eliminating ecm players in your little 4man or 1man pug matches is hard then play 8mans where the shiat is way more coordinated.

I think the reason I stayed away from the MWO forums for a few months was because I didn't wanna see the same damn threads over and over, crying about the same damn thing over and over. So, back to isolation I go.

So your argument is that ECM should OP everything else and be a focus of the game. You're totally and completely missing the point - the point isn't that nobody can deal with it. I deal with it fine. I either drive an ECM Atlas or when I pug I accept that if my team drops without ECM we're far more likely to lose. I shoot ECM mechs when I can and target them first.

It's that I hate it and the whole screwy one-sided approach and it makes the game far less enjoyable for me and the majority of players if any and every poll can be believed.

It's broken.

Please fix it. Please.

[SpiralRazor]

ECM hasnt ruined MWO completely, but I will say its perhaps the dumbest implementation of a mechanic ive seen since umm....well maybe ever in an online game of this type.




"I do play a Raven 3L"


I stopped reading after this point, argument is biased and hence invalid.


Akin to:

I play Darius on TT, but its not broken..............X.X

Edited by SpiralRazor, 23 February 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[WolvesX]

SpiralRazor, on 23 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

ECM hasnt ruined MWO completely, but I will say its perhaps the dumbest implementation of a mechanic ive seen since umm....well maybe ever in an online game of this type.

I would really, really love if they would fix it.

Edited by WolvesX, 23 February 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Bitbiit]

ECM is OP because only a few mechs can use it, it cost barely nothing and the weight is insignificant and only use 2 slots. It does to much for a minimum cost.
If they want ECM to be so powerful, they should adjust the cost (CB, weight and slots, specially the weight). Also, only 4 mechs? consider to add ECM to more mechs. In every match I play, there are at least 3 or 4 raven 3L.

[IceCase88]

Holy Reanimated Forum Thread! This is officially the zombie forum with all the reanimated, specifically ECM, threads. Also the reason why there is a misconception that ECM is broken. Reanimating old threads and the same people starting new threads daily about ECM being broken does not change the fact it is working fine.

Edited by IceCase88, 23 February 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[MischiefSC]

IceCase88, on 23 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Holy Reanimated Forum Thread! This is officially the zombie forum with all the reanimated, specifically ECM, threads. Also the reason why there is a misconception that ECM is broken. Reanimating old threads and the same people starting new threads daily about ECM being broken does not change the fact it is working fine.

Huh. Most people don't agree with you.

No idea why all the necro though, except for Elo.

I predicted this! All the people who were pugstomping with friends in premades are suddenly dropping against other competitive teams (who, to be competitive, work the ECM in layers) and are getting handled again and again and again.

Thus the QQ on the forum.

Delicious tears... delicious.

The dissatisfaction that ECM gives me though keeps me from enjoying them proper so I'm saving them up to make a sauce later.

[WolvesX]

IceCase88, on 23 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Holy Reanimated Forum Thread! This is officially the zombie forum with all the reanimated, specifically ECM, threads. Also the reason why there is a misconception that ECM is broken. Reanimating old threads and the same people starting new threads daily about ECM being broken does not change the fact it is working fine.

No need to make a new one, when the isseu is not fixed.

[wwiiogre]

I have posted many times in many different threads.

Current ECM in MWO is not the ecm that is in this timeline for BattleTech it is effectively Null Sig.

ECM in this timeline does 3 things which have to be toggled not two things.

1. ECM in this timeline stops Narc/Artemis bonus
2. Counter ECM
3. Ghost Targeting which makes it harder to hit, not impossible to get a lock which is what Current MWO does called null sig

Ghost Targeting in BT is countered by BAP and Command Console, Current ECM in MWO has no counter and does two things at the same time.

In BT, ECM can stop Narc/Artemis, counter ECM or Ghost Target, not three settings, none that apply at same time.
In MWO ECM stops Narc/Artemis, Does not allow a lock except within x amount of meters and can counter ECM.

So yeah, ECM as it is in MWO is broken, does not follow timeline and is completely overpowered.

No Where in BT lore or canon does ECM make it impossible to lock on to a target, it just makes it harder to lock on. Only Null Sig makes it impossible to lock on unless within x amount of meters.

So yeah, broken, and a piece of equipment from the future of BT. Not from this timeline. Why have a specific timeline and then choose not to follow it?

How could this current ECM be fixed within the rules of MWO. Using current items and ideas already in game.

Perhaps instead of no lock, current ECM could make it take longer to lock. Say 6 seconds. With BAP reducing that by 1 second and Command Console reducing it by 2 seconds and yes they stack for a whopping half reduction to a 3 second lock time. This is over and above the current lock times.

What would this do to MWO, it would make every weapon usable against ECM, it would however allow the scout mech to have a grace period to attempt to disengage before getting ***** by the more powerful mechs around it if it is stupid enough to get within range and line of sight of bigger mechs. This means a light mech with ecm would be a scout mech. Not a brawling, I am immune to the only weapons that can really hurt me ssrm.

Also make the ECM require three settings, 1. stops narc/artemis but not TAG 2. Ghost Targets making it take longer to lock on mech 3. Counters ECM. This adds another layer and depth to the tactics of using ECM.

Note modules already allow locks to last longer so why not have some that make it take less time to lock when combined with ecm or bap or command console, wait we have target info gathering that already does that. Also you could have pilot skills that also reduce lock times etc. Once again adding depth to the game, instead of just an ecm easy button for the win.

The other bigger problem that is rarely talked about when dealing with ECM is the problem of Light Hit Boxes not applying damage correctly due to lag/netcode. Since we all know hitting Atlas DC in the open even when it is under ecm is not a problem and the PPC emp effect now counters the Atlas ECM, and tag works as well. But TAG and *** fire against lights at range going 140+kph is not a counter it is more a chance. *** does not knock down ecm long enough for a mech to get a lock, then fire lrm's at range, the ecm comes back up, lrm's lose lock and therefore are useless.

So there you have it, current ecm is not ECM of BT, it is null sig. Which makes it a weapon system from the future which is why it is broken in its current state. A fix is easily available and brings ECM back into the timeline, adds more tactical depth and means every weapon system can counter it eventually. Not the broken counters that are currently sometimes working in MWO now. It also means lights with ECM if it is changed would have to be more cautious and actually play like the scouts they are instead of the beasts they have become. I can regularly get 500-700 damage while in my Raven 3L. I refuse to play the mech now cause it is broken. I only use it in 8 mans since if you don't bring more ecm than the other team in 8 mans you lose 95% of those matches. Which is a big case and reason why ECM is broken. 8 man competitive play is about who brings the most, not who is the better team most of the time.

Sorry for the wall of text but at this point it needs to be said.

When I post this in every forum thread about ECM, nobody bothers to try to refute my points intellectually. Let's see if anyone here is up to a real intellectual debate based on the facts and merits, rather than I want my easy button min/max for the win and dude you got no skillz blather that is generally spewed here.

Chris

[Pihb]

necro threads have ruined mwo

[Oni Ralas]

ECM is broken. Anyone who says otherwise is either running ECM to cover their horrible play style, or doesn't understand mechanics. Even the fiction of how ECM works is counter to physics.

[Galathon Redd]

[WolvesX]

Galathon Redd, on 23 February 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Doesn't help, ECM still OP.

[WolvesX]

Oni Ralas, on 23 February 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

ECM is broken. Anyone who says otherwise is either running ECM to cover their horrible play style, or doesn't understand mechanics. Even the fiction of how ECM works is counter to physics.