176 replies to this topic

[MrPenguin]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Let's see here, more nonsense from the liars that I am trying to ignore:

Translation:

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

I will not respond to anyone who disproves my points and says I'm wrong. I'm never wrong. So these people must be lying.

[Codejack]

What this forum needs is a "block" function. Or a "kick" function...

[Harmatia]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

They fixed that.



There are counters to LRMs; AMS, cover, movement, Gauss....

There is exactly 1 counter to ECM: ECM.

My lasers say otherwise dude. I have absolutely no problem hitting the thermal vision button and popping Raven/Commando heads like I'm at a pinata party with a chainsaw.

[Boymonkey]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

What this forum needs is a "block" function. Or a "kick" function...

Yeah it does, thing is it wouldn't work out very well for you.
How many threads have you made bleating about the same things?
Oh and do not call any of us liars.

[Codejack]

Boymonkey, on 06 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Oh and do not call any of us liars.

Liar.

[Zylo]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Well, we've had enough feedback, now, and certainly enough experience. Simple game theory tells you how this will work out: You have one system that counters several other systems, and its only counter is itself, which leads to massive imbalances depending on which team has more ECM mechs. Which means that smart teams are running 2+ ECM mechs, which gives them an even bigger advantage than they had before.

I only PUG; my friends don't play PvP games (I'm only here because I am, and always have been, a Mechwarrior fanatic) and I'm not interested in the guild/house/[REDACTED] system so I can play with random strangers, so the choice I face every drop is: Run my ECM mech and hope that the other side doesn't have more, or run one of my fun mechs and hope that everyone on the other side is stupid.

That's the entire balance of the game. The Rochambeau system has been turned into rock-paper-shotgun.

At the very least, there need to be counters to ECM other than, "more ECM." NARC and BAP should each counter ECM in different ways (one long range and one short range?). TAG shouldn't have to keep painting the target so you can lock. The detection range decrease is just insane.

As near as I can tell, the ECM system was balanced against the current state of the game, which is just ALL screwed up due to optimization and netcode issues. Basically, they set out to eliminate the streakcat, and they wound up eliminating all but 4 mechs.

Pug players will learn fast that the missile boats they relied on in the past are no longer effective against ECM protected targets.

Eventually they will learn that the majority of weapons work just fine against ECM protect targets and the general complaints will go back to which energy or ballistic weapons are OP.

[Codejack]

Zylo, on 06 December 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Pug players will learn fast that the missile boats they relied on in the past are no longer effective against ECM protected targets.

Right; we just have to use different missile boats.

[Sevaradan]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

There is exactly 1 counter to ECM: ECM.

nope gauss lasers, srms, tag, and autocannons are a great counter to ECM as well.

[MrPenguin]

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

nope gauss lasers, srms, tag, and autocannons are a great counter to ECM as well.

Anything that doesn't require a lock really..
So, like... the vast majority of weapons in the game.

[Harmatia]

MrPenguin, on 06 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Anything that doesn't require a lock really..
So, like... the vast majority of weapons in the game.

Exactly.

[Zylo]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Right; we just have to use different missile boats.

Nice selective quoting there.

Learn to aim and ECM isn't a problem at all.

[Tilon]

Yeah, who cares about LRMs anyway, they should be made useless by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.

In related news: Inner Sphere Factories replace every AMS with ECM, saying "Why shoot down some missiles, when you can be practically immune?"

[Harrison Kelly]

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

nope gauss lasers, srms, tag, and autocannons are a great counter to ECM as well.

That makes absolutely no sense, except for the TAG part.

Those weapons don't stop ECM from doing its job, or limit its effectiveness. They're just NOT countered by ECM. If say, a laser disabled or interefered with the ECM on the Mech when it hit, then that would be a counter. (e.g. what TAG does)

This post makes about as much sense as saying that AMS is countered by the same weapons . . . except it's not. Those weapons have no interaction with AMS at all.

If something is a counter, it directly interferes with the functionality of the thing it's countering. Lumbering assault Mechs are countered by lights--the assault can't do its job effectively solo with a light hitting it in the rear. Rapid-fire AC2/5 builds counter sniper mechs with repeated screenshake/suppression.

To put this in Starcraft 2 terms, saying that lasers/gauss/srms counter ECM is akin to saying that Zealots counter Corrupters. Zealots never interact with Corrupters, they're just not countered by Corrupters.

As for TAG, well, it's effective against assaults . . . at half of the max range of LRMs . . . while requiring a constantly painted lock about twice the time of a full laser hit . . . and can't be reliably used against lights. Sounds like a great counter.

[Sevaradan]

Harrison Kelly, on 06 December 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Those weapons don't stop ECM from doing its job

they do if you kill the mech carrying the ecm, its pretty simple...

Edited by Sevaradan, 06 December 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Harrison Kelly]

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

they do if you kill the mech carrying the ecm, its pretty simple...

That's like saying "winning counters the enemy team." Come on, Sev, give me a little bit more of a logical reasoning. Saying that "Killing the guy who has it" is a counter is silly and unhelpful. A counter is an effective method to accomplish that goal, either by loadout or strategy. "Focus the ECM Mech" is more useful, but still unhelpful against premades of 4+.

Death from lasers/ac/gauss countered 150kph Laserbacks.
Death from lasers/ac/gauss countered release Artemis LRM boats
Death from lasers/ac/gauss countered Streak Cats.

That does not make any of the above effective counters. A counter is a means unto an end, not the end itself.

[Lerzpftz]

Hi. I'm Lerzpftz and i'm playing most games as a pug or in a "mini-premade" of 2 or 3 guys.

None of us has ECM and we are doing fine usually. I think once you adapted to ECM, it isn't much of a problem. Its fun to sit in some distance from those 2 big blue blobs of mechs trying to cover under their ECM bubbles. That makes it much easier for me to shoot my gauss/ppc/lasers at them. Basically you can't miss them, if there is this big group of mechs in such a tiny space. Direct fire weapons still work fantasticly against those enemies. To be honest, it's even quite possible to run around with LRMs if you bring your own tag and some backup lasers.

Another thing is, that with introduction of new game modes with several bases/points to hold, it won't work anymore to stomp over the map in a single big group. So you have to sacrifice 2 damage pumping jenners and use ravens or something like a very slow house-like mech like the atlas where it's hard to find cover high enough.

All in all, i really like the way they implemented ECM. And i think with the introduction of bigger maps and more game-modes it will even loose some effectivness. So please just leave it the way it is now.

[Codejack]

Guys, keep it up! You keep on cheering for the system that is helping you today, when tomorrow it will be gone and you will be back in here whinging about it. Those of you who are merely biased are bad enough, but there are 3 or 4 folks running around here just blatanly lying about the state of the game.

I don't care! I change my mech as the rules change, and give my honest opinion as to how it works. A srteakcat is a 65-ton mech specifically designed to kill 20-35-ton mechs; it gives up a lot in the process, though, and if you knew its weaknesses, you knew how to deal with it. Better yet, if you found yourself fighting them over and over again, you could build a mech specifically designed to kill it, but I guess that's me thinking that the mechlab is supposed to be a part of the game and not just a gallery of pretty pictures.

I'm not suffering under the current state of things! I've just switched to an ECM chassis for my streaks. I adapt; you guys come in here and try to change the game, and that's not cool.

My only interest is in keeping the game going! New players aren't going to get interested in a game where they keep getting killed by people they never see coming, and basically get told that they have to either pony up cash or suicide-farm a couple of hundred rounds before they can really get in the game. No new players = no game.

But you guys keep metagaming yourselves into more and more overpowered setups; just know that I will be playing the same setup, and when the game shuts down from lack of interest, you will be back to playing with yourselves.

[Boymonkey]

Oh please dude all your polls and others polls from the last day show that people are loving ECM, they will improve other things that help counter it in the next patch or so.
The new players will enjoy the game once they bring in a tutorial etc, Yes it is a hard game to understand if you are new but the last thing we want is to dumb it down.
Oh and learn to aim dude.

Edited by Boymonkey, 06 December 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

What problem? Maybe if you used some of that elite teamwork you've been bragging about forever no, ECM wouldn't be a problem.

[Asmudius Heng]

Lerzpftz, on 06 December 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Hi. I'm Lerzpftz and i'm playing most games as a pug or in a "mini-premade" of 2 or 3 guys.

None of us has ECM and we are doing fine usually. I think once you adapted to ECM, it isn't much of a problem. Its fun to sit in some distance from those 2 big blue blobs of mechs trying to cover under their ECM bubbles. That makes it much easier for me to shoot my gauss/ppc/lasers at them. Basically you can't miss them, if there is this big group of mechs in such a tiny space. Direct fire weapons still work fantasticly against those enemies. To be honest, it's even quite possible to run around with LRMs if you bring your own tag and some backup lasers.

Another thing is, that with introduction of new game modes with several bases/points to hold, it won't work anymore to stomp over the map in a single big group. So you have to sacrifice 2 damage pumping jenners and use ravens or something like a very slow house-like mech like the atlas where it's hard to find cover high enough.

All in all, i really like the way they implemented ECM. And i think with the introduction of bigger maps and more game-modes it will even loose some effectivness. So please just leave it the way it is now.

You must be fighting some mighty poor n00bs if they cannot use ECM to its benefit instead of sitting there like morons. Without ECM they would do the same AND you could target them. Fighting poor opposition is not a good call to say ECM is fine.

Streak cats were fine too when i faced guys who could hardly pilot as well !