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Ecm Must Change


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#21 xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:09 PM

It's not really harder or easier as a pug... it's just been watered down into an ECM huddle base rush, where as before, it had actual strategy. Now, you're just going to follow the ECM guy to the enemy base and try to cap first or have a single game determining brawl. I liked rowed fights where people used terrain tactically or tried to defend. Why bother with any of that now? Just follow the ECM guy from point A to point B. With LRMs now entirely worthless, there's nothing to really stop you from just bumrushing to the enemy force to spam Medium Lasers and AC 20s.

Edit: I'm going to explain this in better detail because I don't think many people understood what we had. Enemies aren't going to hit you with ER PPCs or Gauss Rifles while you're moving to them quickly and in between cover. Long range weapons such as those were basically a counter to LRM boats, which were a counter to rushers. So you see, we had a nice circle going here. Now the long range has no point because the LRMs are useless all on their own, thus opposing teams just rush to the enemy base or to close range to brawl it out. There's no longer a reason or point to playing tactically or cautiously. Just rush to the enemy base. Either they won't be there thus you'll take the base and win, or they will be forced to close distance to fight you. Yanking LRMs out of this game sucks a great deal of fun out of it... unless you just liked nothing but mindless 300 meter brawl fights.

Edited by Bluten, 05 December 2012 - 08:25 PM.


#22 zenstrata

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

Eyes! use your eyes! do you guys really need a giant red square over a target to effectively shoot at it? Your eyes are an incredibly effective counter to ECM and everyone is already equipped with it =)

#23 Koningswulf

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

Dont see whats all the fuss is about really! Sure Ecm is good but not gamewinning by itself by any means.
It takes tonnage and slots and can be rendered useless, and so far I havent seen any ECM make the killing shoot!
What it does give is a fog of war that previously has been missing in the game due to small maps.
Now the need for scouting and screen as well as keeping people in reserv has made the game much more tactical.
I for one really like ECM and hope they keep it as it is, just learn to adapt. Every time there is new equipment people start screaming its OP and you cant win against it, thats a lot of BS because all sides have the same possibilities in the game.
Adapt, support, destroy, win!

#24 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

ECM is one of those things that does a lot of good but causes a lot of problems.

The projected boost to TAG range is a good fix, but it is insufficient.

Making BAP a way for someone to target people under an ECM envelope isn't a terrible idea, but it would basically make it mandatory for all Streakapults to bring and would do pretty much nothing for anyone else (assuming target sharing is still blocked by ECM). If BAP does get changed to allow the carrier to detect people within 120m regardless of ECM, lock-on times should still be doubled and target sharing should still be blocked.

TAG should be given a toggle like ECM (on/off, rather than making it a trigger group), in addition to the proposed range boost.

NARC needs a complete rework. It should no longer affect lock-on time or missile grouping, but should instead provide a target return without regard to line of sight and should last for something more like 2 minutes rather than 15 seconds. ECM should reduce its effective broadcast range to 300ish meters (forcing those LRM carriers to get really close), within which range NARCed mechs can be targeted with the same doubled lock-on time as ECM usually provokes.

Artemis IV should let you target shielded mechs much like TAG so long as you maintain your reticule on them, but it'd work for your mech only and not be sharable (consistent with Artemis as a self-buff only), and you'd lose the lock on time and missile grouping bonuses if your Artemis is getting jammed. This would help to justify the somewhat prohibitive cost in weight and space for putting A4FCS on your mech.

There should also be modules that counter it. Hardened Electronics could allow for getting locks inside the 180m range, but still prevent target sharing and locks would still be twice as long. Signal Boosting could allow for sharing target data even inside an ECM envelope. I'm sure that there are many other options that could be thought of as well.

The biggest issue I have with ECM currently is that it is chassis-restricted, and is not available in every weight class. I understand that in the current implementation it'd wind up being required for every build if it were unrestricted, but it would be nice if every chassis had at least one variant that could bring ECM along.

Jenner K. Hunchback 4H, Centurion AL, Dragon 1C, Catapult C4, Cataphract 1X, Awesome 8T are what I'd suggest for now, but of course that'd be subject to balance passes.

#25 Arcturious

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

I really haven't been seeing this. I've played a heap of games since patch and I think I've had only one or two be the huddle / ECM war others are reporting.

I still do the same thing I have always done at the start of every match since closed beta. I go find a high point or place with long sight lines, throw on heat vision and spot the enemy. I then call out over chat something like "Movement on far end of 3 line". As the blobs split up I clarify "3-4 headed towards landmark X on G3". Then finally I might find another vantage to make sure nobody has sneaked around a flank and say "Flank (Cave, D7, City, Bridge whatever) clear".

This was a huge help before BAP because you couldn't target till 800m. Most PUG's have at least 1-3 mechs with some form of direct fire - AC2, UAC5, PPC etc. They would position themselves and start shooting even before the enemy got to 800m.

So far, nothing at all has changed to the 800m mark with the introduction of ECM.

Now with ECM, you just have the added tactical consideration of counting the enemy force. If in my scouting I only saw 4 or 5 of the enemy, I now worry about what they might be up to. I'll watch where their friends are going and extrapolate positions on the map the other Lance could be headed. I'll go find some high ground near cover in that location, or ask a team mate closer than I to check it out.

I had one good game just this morning like this. We did everything right in Frozen Colony. Scouted them out, saw 4 in the River region. Moved up and took them out. We spotted one or two during the fight slinking into the cave, but everyone got so caught up in taking out the 4 in front of us we just forgot about the others. Suddenly, base is being capped and we ran back but didn't quite make it. ECM was used to get them to the base undetected, because previously as they went from Cave to Base we might have got a reminder ping on the map that they were behind us. Yet we were completely to blame. It's still possible that they could have pulled it off even without ECM. It was well played, and while I was annoyed it was more at myself for losing track of them during the fight.

I just can't see what all this ECM discussion is really about. There is nothing ECM does that wasn't possible before and hasn't changed my play style other than making me more observant and making games closer and more enjoyable. I've had more tense moments in the last two days than the week before, just from the extra challenge added now. But fundamentally nothing has changed. I can still visually see the enemy. I can still shoot everything other than streaks at them. I still need to co ordinate with my team through the text chat. Just now I need to be more aware of the entire battlefield than just my mini map.

#26 topgun505

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

Shrugs.

Don't make multiple ECM unit effects stack?

#27 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostJimSuperBleeder, on 05 December 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:


I agree for the most part. Like I said it is just being abused at the moment, I'm sure premades are handling it a little better than pugs are.


Not really, i see way more ECM in 8 vs 8 than in PUGs - competative players know a massive advantage when they se it and will max it out. Most seem to bring about 5-6 to cancel the enemies and still have some left over to make sure thier missiles work and the others do not.

This is a massive flaw - it should be useful but not so useful and with the only counter being another ECM mech.

A balanced bit of equipment would have people looking at it and saying - so we need ECM this game? What are the pros and cons.

At the moment that thought does not exist - it is how many can we bring - stack em high.

This is not a game of tactics and trade offs. BAP came onto the scene and did ok - it helped people with certain tasks, it was not a must have item, it filled a niche.

ECM while restricted to certain mechs have so much power in pre-mades those mechs are 90% of the team ... this is an issue.

EDIT - spelling

Edited by Asmudius Heng, 05 December 2012 - 08:44 PM.


#28 Talon Thorn

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:46 PM

I'll tell you what I [REDACTED] think, ECM is way too [REDACTED] OP. I can't even rock my [REDACTED] Streak Cat anymore without being completely [REDACTED][REDACTED] in my [REDACTED].

#29 Belkor

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostCodejack, on 05 December 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

How? Every game is exactly the same, now. Everyone rushes the enemy base under ECM cover, and if you run into each other, it turns into a furball where the team with the most ECM almost invariably wins, which, again, if you are in a PUG...

I'm sorry, for me, it has killed the game.


Furball with most ECM? ECM only affects Streaks and LRMs so how would more ECM stop ballistics or lasers? If you relied on pure streaks as a crutch, you deserved this nerf.

Edited by Belkor, 05 December 2012 - 08:49 PM.


#30 Rhent

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostKastergir, on 05 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Couldnt disagree more. Its true, you see a lot of 4 man and 8 man groups ECM stomping everything, with the other side simply holding close to no chance to win. But thats not an ECM Problem. Its a Problem of how those players choose to use it. I definitely know how youre feeling, since I pilot and CMD-2D in PUG games a lot. I also pilot it in 4 man and 8 man groups. And yeah youre right, it looks like the group with more ECMs is the winner.

Then on the other hand...I find it an acceptable challenge to work with what I have to try and overcome what they throw at me...I dont really mind loosing a lot of matches since the last patch, or dieing a lot of miserable pixeldeaths. As long as I learn something out of each and every match I am playing...

Lessons learned so far: do not rely on ECM...it may be countered. Do not rely on lockon weapons...they may be rendered useless. Do not rely on radar...rely on eyes, ears, thermal and night vision more. Pay more attention to surrounding terrain, possible fire lanes, escape routes etc. Increase situational awareness.

All in all, for me, ECM as it has been implemented has upped the challenge much, and I appreciate that. Simply made MW:O a MUCH more interesting game.


Actually I've found that ECM's has made MWO much like table top rules, It used to require tactics and skill to read radar and get a quick breakout of the mech you are fighting, its weapons load out and the damage it has taken. But now thanks to ECM, I don't have to worry about tactics. I have to aim at CT and hope that it will kill the mech, rather than seeing the read out and knowing where to target.

Kudo's to the PGI dev team, they've found a way to prevent players from acting as a group and targetting weak spots on mechs. I really feel that PGI has brought the Table Top experience to life.

Of course, I am done playing the game for a few weeks until PGI figures out how to fix this mess.

#31 Talon Thorn

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

View PostBelkor, on 05 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:


Furball with most ECM? ECM only affects Streaks and LRMs so how would more ECM stop ballistics or lasers? If you relied on pure streaks as a crutch, you deserved this nerf.


From the Command Chair post on Guardian ECM...

When you enter the range of an enemy ECM in disrupt mode, your Mech will be cut off from communications with your teammates and some of your targeting equipment will cease to function. Mechs that are within the field of a hostile ECM are marked with a symbol that looks like low signal bars.

When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:
  • You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.
  • You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  • Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  • You cannot achieve any missile locks.
  • Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  • Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.
My point here is, that ECM effects MUCH more than Streaks and LRMs...it needs to change

#32 Redmond Spiderhammer

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

I have to disagree with folks who claim that ECM can be propperly brought back into balance by adding effective counters to it.
This is a piece of equipment that weighs the same and has the same crit space requirements as AMS. Its flat out WAY to much value. For what it currently does it should probably weigh in at 5 tons 4 crits. The only reason NOT to equip ECM: You don't currently own a capable mech. That's a problem. If it was allowed on any mech how many in the field would have one? Would anyone not use it? Its no accident that its only allowed on a few variants, it was an attempt to keep it from over-running the game, but it shouldn't have been necessary. That they thought it necessary should have told them that it was unbalanced right from the start.

ETA: Using ECM to balance streaks was a Terrible plan and should have been discarded imediately. Balance streaks by... balancing streaks.. make them every bit as good per ton & crit as other similar weapons (ie 2 SSRM2s should be about as good as 1 SRM 6) but not more so. Balalnce ECM by making it every bit as useful as AMS and BAP but not moreso.

Edited by Redmond Spiderhammer, 05 December 2012 - 09:45 PM.


#33 JimSuperBleeder

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:56 PM

View PostCodejack, on 05 December 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

How? Every game is exactly the same, now. Everyone rushes the enemy base under ECM cover, and if you run into each other, it turns into a furball where the team with the most ECM almost invariably wins, which, again, if you are in a PUG...

I'm sorry, for me, it has killed the game.


This is the first time sense I have started playing that I have felt perturbed.

The game play in the pug world sucks because everyone is basing a play style around one item.
(refrain from any "get a group" comments; please and thanks.)

#34 Kreisel

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

ECM does seem to do a little too much for the Tonnage. Certainly much more than BA, AMS+1 ton of it's ammo, Artemis. the Narc launcher, or a TAG laser...

For 1.5 Tons, it completely Eliminates any point to having AMS (which only works on missiles with locks anyway) and completely Nullifies BAP, Narc and Artemis. It also completely Nullifies the Module that lets you maintain targets behind you up to 180.

The proposed increase in TAG Range will help but it still wont quite counter how powerful ECM, especially since ECM can counter it's supposed counter just by getting close to it... TAG wont transmit when your in the ECM field. Move TAG back to only being half a ton, make it a toggle On/Off and give it the increased range and you'll start to see it on the field a lot more, because it will be a lot more attractive to invest in.

The ability to effectively dumb-fire LRM's would help, my experience is if you even lose lock for a second right now it pretty just means you miss. If you could switch them over to fire like SRM that armed at 180 atleast the boats would have an option to shoot at all.

Really what it does now is ok, cool even... it just needs a tweak to the range, if the numbers changed some it would be more reasonable. 180 to 200... only a pocket a 20 in which you can get a lock... Even an Assault mech can close that gap in less than the time it takes to establish a lock, let alone the time it takes for the missiles to take the flight path that will actually hit, and they can force you out of lock range by going either direction... which effectively means the most they ever have to move is 10... and lets not forget it takes 25% longer to get that lock in the first place because the ECM is active.

Has anyone tested this with the increased sensor Range Module? If ECM drops sensor range down to 25% and the Mod increases it by 15%, does it let you lock on ECM at 230? or does ECM just trump that too?

If ECM did what it did now, but it only decreased Sensor Range by 50% it would still be powerful, but it wouldn't completely turn off any chance or using radar or getting locks the way it does now. You could get sensor lock at only 180 to 400 (460 with the Module) still a very limited range compared to normal, but a range that also is still wide enough to work within.

With that one change: Streaks could work out at 180-270, losing over half their effective range, taking 25% longer to get a lock and losing their lock if they veer too close to the ECM carrying Mech. Suddenly AMS has a purpose against streaks again as well, since it will shoot down a single SSrm2 volley fired from over 200 away, covering much of the same Range ECM was countering but making you spend a little more tonnage if you want to want to completely counter streaks that badly.

At the same time LRMs get a huuuge boon, 180-400 cuts their effective range in half as well, (though I would argue in many ways LRM are already only effective at this range anyway because of how long it takes them to reach the target) but it gives enough room to play in to actually make it possible to get a lock. it's still possible to mess up an LRM boat by simply falling back, or using cover, speed and AMS to cross the 220 to be under their minimum range. But it means you have to be smart about crossing that range, you still have to use SOME caution or you'll present yourself as a target anyway. an LRM boat being caught under your Min range by the ECM carrying mech still means you can't lock on and shoot at ANYONE with LRMs and so there is no option to ignore them, which is pretty powerful on it own. Again this gives AMS a reason to exist.

Lastly the ECM should be a counter to BAP, that was always part of it's whole point... but it shouldn't completely outdo this other piece of equipment with the same crit slot and weight requirements. Just make the calculations effect each other, BAP increases Radar 25%, ECM reduces it by 50%, net result 500 (575 with the module). BAP decreases time to acquire data 25%, ECM increases it by the same... net result... normal time to acquire each level of sensor lock. BAP still turns off if stuck under 180 with a ECM mech, but all sensors do so that makes sense. This way BAP wont simply feel like wasted tonnage on Mechs who have it in matches with ECM, but ECM remains an effective counter for BAP.

and If Artemis locks slower on an ECM shielded mech than on one without it, but faster on that mech an missile systems without Artemis that would feel balanced as well... as both mechs are benefiting for the equipment they have installed.

If NARC actually work correctly and will maintain sensor lock with no line of sight from anyone, than the planed increase to 20 second, might do enough to make them a decent niche choice as well, even if ECM Jams them. Since LRM can take up to around 15 seconds to reach a Target at max range at-least that will be long enough for 1 volley to establish a lock and reach the target. It would be much more useful at closer ranges around corners, in the 200-400 range where a volley can reach a target in 3-5 seconds.

It's a pretty subtle set of changes, but it would make electronic warfare a LOT more dynamic and interesting... and not rules by a single piece of equipment that is just the king of them all.

Edited by Kreisel, 05 December 2012 - 10:24 PM.


#35 Belkor

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:53 PM

No mechs should simply rely on pure auto lock-ons as a crutch. ECMs are causing users to diversify weapon systems which creates a far more interesting combat environment with depth. This game has improved significantly for me.

View PostTalon Thorn, on 05 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:


From the Command Chair post on Guardian ECM...

When you enter the range of an enemy ECM in disrupt mode, your Mech will be cut off from communications with your teammates and some of your targeting equipment will cease to function. Mechs that are within the field of a hostile ECM are marked with a symbol that looks like low signal bars.

When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:
  • You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.
  • You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  • Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  • You cannot achieve any missile locks.
  • Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  • Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.
My point here is, that ECM effects MUCH more than Streaks and LRMs...it needs to change





Nothing in your argument supports changing ECM. ECM stops pure lock-on builds which is ideal. Diversify to ballistics or lasers to counter it instead of relying on pure lock-ons as a crutch. Also, nice biased font minimization.

Edited by Belkor, 05 December 2012 - 10:58 PM.


#36 RumRunner151

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:08 AM

View PostCodejack, on 05 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

You have one system that counters several other systems, and its only counter is itself,


Your premise is flawed. TAG is very effective in countering ECM. Too bad more people don't equip it.

#37 wanderer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:22 AM

View PostJimSuperBleeder, on 05 December 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:


I agree for the most part. Like I said it is just being abused at the moment, I'm sure premades are handling it a little better than pugs are.


If a system is being easily abused, by nature it is broken.

Somewhere, Paul I. is filling a cup with the tears of Streakcat pilots who ragequit when some Commando starts circling them with it's ECM running.

#38 wanderer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:27 AM

View PostBelkor, on 05 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:


Furball with most ECM? ECM only affects Streaks and LRMs so how would more ECM stop ballistics or lasers? If you relied on pure streaks as a crutch, you deserved this nerf.


It's not just that. The team with the higher ECM count can see everything just fine, while the jammed side can't tell who's targeting what, where it's damaged, and indeed in PUGs, sometimes who's on what team. This significantly degrades the ECM'd team in it's ability to kill, meaning the other team is more likely to destroy them faster. Further, it means the team with ECM can attack from multiple angles and remain unseen by most of the enemy team in the process, further adding to the confusion.

It's a powerful tool even above and beyond it's missile-hosing ability.

#39 wanderer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:30 AM

View PostRumRunner151, on 06 December 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:


Your premise is flawed. TAG is very effective in countering ECM. Too bad more people don't equip it.


I'm finding it pretty much useless when I have a non Atlas ECM 'Mech I'm trying to shoot. Trying to keep TAG on a target moving that fast and often in circles around another target or cover is an exercise in futility.

Killing slower 'Mechs under an ECM bubble? Sure thing. Three out of four of the 'Mechs I want dead ASAP are quite nimble enough to render TAG a poor solution.

#40 Glythe

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:37 AM

The only problem with TAG is that it doesn't have a toggle on/off button. Give me that and then I'll consider using it.

You don't necessarily need to nerf ECM itself.... you could just buff BAP to counter ECM and then there's really no problem.

Want to read more?

http://mwomercs.com/...gh-ecm-related/

Edited by Glythe, 06 December 2012 - 09:38 AM.






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