117 replies to this topic

[Capriocorpus]

Hi been playing since closed beta and this is the first time I've posted but i have a couple of suggestions that might help balance the ECM. The problem with the ECM is that while we have hard counters for it in the form of tag and ECM set to counter mode we don't have any soft counters for it. For those that don't know the differnce between a hard and soft counter pretty much if you go up against someone who is using a hard counter to what you're using barring a miracle you are goin to lose, while if you go up againt someone using a soft counter its harder to fight them but you still have a chance to beat them.


I think the perfect soft counters to the ECM could be the BAP and the Narc. The BAP can be made a soft counter to the ECM by extending the 20m ring, that rests between 180m-200m and allows you to target ECM protected mechs like they werent protected, up to somewhere between 100m to 200m so that you can target them between 180m to 280m or 380m when you have it equiped. However there should be a 1 to 3 sec delay before you can target target them and you have to keep them in your LOS the entire time or it resets the count.


How the Narc can be made a soft counter is by if you are able to hit an ECM protected mech with like 2 to 3 Narcs the Narced mech will be able to be targeted like it was Narced but not ECM protected. However seeing as how the Narc effect lasts only 15 secs, they say they are buffing this so this suggestion might make the Narc unbalenced, every new Narc could increase the time remaining by 5 secs or so.


If these 2 suggestions are implemented it would allow for more variety, tactical options, give people a reason to equip Narc, and hopefully Balance the ECM.

[Stormwolf]

I think that ECM should only be available for mechs that are created for the Electronic Warfare role.
Only the Raven would have ECM when you look at the currently available designs.

Mechs like the Spector would also be viable for this role later on.

[Kobold]

ECM isn't the problem. Nearly every aspect of ECM is just fine, and pretty fun, EXCEPT for its interaction with lock on weapons.

This suggests that the problem is with the lock on weapons.

http://mwomercs.com/...-dont-add-band/

[Naeron66]

Pretty easy to fix ECM.

1. ECM reduces detection range.
2. ECM increases missile lock times (I'd say x3 on the ECM mech itself and x2 in the 180m radius),
3. ECM reduces missile lock loss times to 0. Lose LoS and you lose lock instantly.
4. ECM reduces missile lock range (750m for LRM, 200m for Streaks).
5. ECM blocks targetting information for all mechs within the 180m radius but not target locking.
6. (Optional) ECM prevents missile locks within a 90m radius.
7. (Optional) ECM cancels the benefits of Artemis.

BAP mitigates 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 (e.g. for detection 800m > 400m/500m with BAP).
TAG overcomes 2, 6 and 7.
NARC overcomes 3, 4 and 6.
ECM set on disrupt cancels ECM effects in 180m radius.

The PGI can work on fixing Streaks by making them random location hits so they do spread the damage out. Streak Cats would be much less dangerous if 1/3 of their damage was always ending up on the arms and legs. To be honest PGI could handle streak cats by saying than Mech targetting systems just cannot handle more than 3 or 4 streak launchers on a mech in total.

That makes ECM very useful and worth countering but not something that seriously weakens some canon builds unless they have a teamplayer ECM mech on their side. It also adds the potential for more strategy and complexity as TAG and NARC cancel out differing effects.

Edited by Naeron66, 06 December 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[wanderer]

Fixing ECM? Definitely doable.

First off, Streak racks. Rendering them inert in an ECM bubble is overdoing it.

Change Streaks to how they function when ECM'd in tabletop. They fire as normal SRM racks. A Streak-Cat suddenly becomes an undergunned SRM carrier that has to aim, but ECM no longer renders him utterly helpless. This is how it works in canon, and there's no reason to change it for MWO. Without his magical guided launchers, he's nowhere near the threat level under ECM that he is without it.

Second off, LRMs. Canonically, they're designed to fire into heavy ECM thanks to a guidance system "dumb" enough not to be spoofed by countermeasures that ECM reduces to garbage. Making it "TAG or nothing" is overkill.

Change it that NARC and Artemis guidance have no effect on an ECM'd target- the missiles cluster just like a standard LRM launch on hitting. TAG -also- has no effect on a target under ECM. ECM instead doubles lock-on times (based on standard LRM lockon times- again, Artemis/NARC/TAG has no effect with ECM active). and halves the time a lock "lingers" if the target leaves the crosshairs.

LRMs have a maximum range of 600m to an ECM'd target, as the normal spotting-bonus data is unavailable when firing on a target with ECM. (See below- with BAP, it's 600m- without, 450m.)

Of course, the 'Mech has to actually be able to TARGET things, so:

Third off, targeting limitations.

Mechs within 200m of ECM can get the "flickery HUD" as before.

Mechs with 450m of ECM get a blank red bracket on targets. All the HUD can do is bracket the target- no other data shows (paperdoll, weapons or 'Mech ID, nothing)- which allows attempted lockon for LRMs at the aforementioned penalty.

Mechs beyond this range cannot target a 'Mech under ECM, other than old-fashioned point and shoot.

BAP adds 25% to the "flicker" range, roughly 33.33% for "blank bracket"- changing them to 250m for the first, 600m for the second.

[Blark]

Only problem I see with ecm right now are streaks/lights:

- fix netcode (this will probably take a while)
- bring back knockdowns
- make ssrm target arms/legs too as announced

ECM is now fine.

Until then I will enjoy (or probably get bored to death)the easy wins in my little ECM-ssrm Raven squad.

[PurpleNinja]

Let all mechs have it.

[Xipe Totec]

I think we could hit two birds with one stone.

Have PPCs disrupt ECMs. So if you get hit by a PPC, you have no ECM for 30 seconds. PPCs get scary again for some mechs, and ECM has a long-range counter.

[Snuglninja]

Just call it what it is it's not ECM to it's a null signature. So if that's what people want make it like tt rules, when you use it your heat sinks don't work.

[Khobai]

Fixing ECM is easy

1) ECM should only reduce detection range by 25% (not 75%). ECM is NOT Null Signature System and as such should not convey stealth to mechs. ECM reduced sensor range by 20%-25% in the other mechwarrior games so thats an appropriate reduction amount.

2) ECM should not cancel out BAP or Sensor Module, otherwise there's no reason to use either of those. However, BAP should only be useable by certain mechs, obviously different mechs than the ones that can use ECM, with the exception of the Raven which should be the only mech capable of using both.

3) ECM should not prevent missiles from locking on. Hard-counters are a bad way to balance a game. ECM should simply reduce the effective range of LRMs, increase lock-on time for LRMs and SSRMs, and cancel out Artemis/TAG/NARC. That is more than enough capability for a piece of equipment that only weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 crit slots.

Quote

just call it what it is it's not ECM to it's a null signature. So if that's what people want make it like tt rules, when you use it your heat sinks don't work.

Yeah except just changing the name isnt sufficient. Because NSS only works on the mech its equipped on and takes up way more tonnage and crit slots. If you want a stealth mech in Battletech you have to PAY for it. The whole problem with ECM granting stealth is that there's no downside to it and hence no reason not to use it.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2012 - 05:32 AM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

wanderer, on 06 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

Fixing ECM? Definitely doable.

First off, Streak racks. Rendering them inert in an ECM bubble is overdoing it.

Change Streaks to how they function when ECM'd in tabletop. They fire as normal SRM racks. A Streak-Cat suddenly becomes an undergunned SRM carrier that has to aim, but ECM no longer renders him utterly helpless. This is how it works in canon, and there's no reason to change it for MWO. Without his magical guided launchers, he's nowhere near the threat level under ECM that he is without it.

Second off, LRMs. Canonically, they're designed to fire into heavy ECM thanks to a guidance system "dumb" enough not to be spoofed by countermeasures that ECM reduces to garbage. Making it "TAG or nothing" is overkill.

Change it that NARC and Artemis guidance have no effect on an ECM'd target- the missiles cluster just like a standard LRM launch on hitting. TAG -also- has no effect on a target under ECM. ECM instead doubles lock-on times (based on standard LRM lockon times- again, Artemis/NARC/TAG has no effect with ECM active). and halves the time a lock "lingers" if the target leaves the crosshairs.

LRMs have a maximum range of 600m to an ECM'd target, as the normal spotting-bonus data is unavailable when firing on a target with ECM. (See below- with BAP, it's 600m- without, 450m.)

Of course, the 'Mech has to actually be able to TARGET things, so:

Third off, targeting limitations.

Mechs within 200m of ECM can get the "flickery HUD" as before.

Mechs with 450m of ECM get a blank red bracket on targets. All the HUD can do is bracket the target- no other data shows (paperdoll, weapons or 'Mech ID, nothing)- which allows attempted lockon for LRMs at the aforementioned penalty.

Mechs beyond this range cannot target a 'Mech under ECM, other than old-fashioned point and shoot.

BAP adds 25% to the "flicker" range, roughly 33.33% for "blank bracket"- changing them to 250m for the first, 600m for the second.

very nice... best writeup I have seen so far.

[Duvanor]

We don't need BAP to counter ECM cause ECM already counters ECM. Perhaps PGI should try a reduction of distances for locks by 60% instead of 75%.

[Khobai]

Quote

We don't need BAP to counter ECM cause ECM already counters ECM. Perhaps PGI should try a reduction of distances for locks by 60% instead of 75%.

You clearly dont understand how ECM works.

ECM doesnt cancel out another ECM until its within 180m. So the sensor range reducing effect of ECM currently doesn't get countered by anything. Each BAP on your team should cancel out the sensor reducing effect of one ECM on the enemy's team.

[Duvanor]

I clearly understand how ECM works. That's why I said, they could perhaps allow to lock on on higher distances. But allowing other equipment to circumvent ECM makes ECM useless.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Obadiah333, on 05 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

allow every mech that wants to mount ECM be able to mount it.

Either this, or make ECM the expensive and fragile lostech that it is. For example, make ECM prone to intermittent failure as the mech is rocked by fire. Or, permanent failure from crit damage like the Gauss rifle today.

As far as allowing each mech to mount it, for ECM the mounting / chassis material / antenna typically has to be specific, so I like the idea that only certain mechs can mount it.

Anyway, IIRC engagement in MWO happens at much closer range than it does in TT, so the effective range of ECM should be adjusted accordingly. At any rate, things move at a faster rate in MWO than it does in TT, so effectively things are closer than they are in TT.

[Khobai]

Quote

I clearly understand how ECM works. That's why I said, they could perhaps allow to lock on on higher distances.

ECM is NOT supposed to grant stealth. It should not reduce sensor range at all. But since it did reduce sensor range in some of the other mechwarrior games by 20%-25% then that would be acceptable. 60%-75% is not acceptable.

Quote

But allowing other equipment to circumvent ECM makes ECM useless.

No it doesnt. ECM only weighs frickin 1.5 tons. It should not do all that much anyway. If all ECM did was reduce sensor range by 25% (which should be countered by BAP), increase missile lock-on time by twice as much, AND cancel out C3, Artemis, NARC, and TAG it would still be FAR from useless. Thats negating a lot of tech for only 1.5 tons.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2012 - 05:52 AM.

[Comassion]

The only thing they need to do to balance ECM is take it off the Atlas, and possibly the Cicada. Let the Commando and the Raven have it, and stop there. Once you do that, the full-ECM groups will stop, because people won't have the firepower to make it worthwhile if they run all Ravens.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I just hope any PGI staff will read this :X .
Sometimes I wonder if they ever played previous MW tittles or TT game -.-

[Khobai]

Quote

The only thing they need to do to balance ECM is take it off the Atlas, and possibly the Cicada. Let the Commando and the Raven have it, and stop there. Once you do that, the full-ECM groups will stop, because people won't have the firepower to make it worthwhile if they run all Ravens.

That doesnt balance ECM though. That just balances D-DCs and Cicadas. Youre attacking a consequence of the underlying problem instead of the underlying problem itself. The whole problem with ECM is that its absolutely gamechanging but only weighs 1.5 tons and has NO downside whatsoever. That is the very definition of imbalanced.

To balance ECM one of two things needs to happen:

Option 1) ECM stays powerful but is given a tremendous downside, for example, when your ECM is activated your mech generates +2 heat per second. As a result, mechs using ECM wouldnt really be able to fight effectively at the same time, and using ECM becomes a thoughtful choice rather than a compulsory act.

Option 2) ECM's effects are significantly reduced so that they're proportional to its tonnage and crit slots. ECM's stealth bubble is removed and ECM is made more like its mechwarrior 4/tabletop counterpart. This is the more preferable of the two options in my opinion.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2012 - 06:01 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

ECM is NOT unbalanced. People are just too lazy to think of how to adapt tactics and tech to beat it. I go into detail on how I conquered the Evil ECM boogeyman HERE (well, more accurately, how Steele's 1st Legion of Thunder did):
http://mwomercs.com/...a-big-fat-myth/