44 replies to this topic

[Vapor Trail]

I really think the LB-10 needs the solid shot option. That way you've got a longer range engagement option, and that's SORELY needed with the way the spread is right now.

How about this: Changing ammo types on the Lb-10 changes the performance of the weapon. With cluster the weapon behaves currently (not talking about the shot pattern or anything, just the weapon), with slightly better performance than the AC/10. With solid shot, the damage stays at 10/shot, but the heat goes up to 3/shot (equal to AC/10) and the cooldown/reload goes up to 2.6/shot to 2.65/shot instead of 2.5/shot.

This would make the LB/10 in solid-shot mode inferior to the AC/10 in DPS output, 3.85 to 3.77 DPS vs 4.0 DPS, but in DPSpT the LB-10 still has a slight edge.

Basically I think we want to get the AC/10 and the LB10 to the point where you want to take the AC/10 if all you're going to use is solid shot... but if you want the flexibility of the cluster ammo option, the price is some tradeoff on the solid shot side. This is one of the few areas where a side-grade is possible, and maybe even preferrable, to the strict up/down-grade that normally happens with TL-2 weapons vs their TL-1 counterparts.

[Edit]
And for everyone who's saying the LB-10/x is supposed to be a shotgun, the description and the rules are at odds, because range had no factor in how many pellets hit the target... 2 pellets hitting a target at point blank range was just as likely as all 10 pellets hitting a target at extreme range.

This argued for either a very sophisticated variable choke on the weapon, or a "flak" type shell that fragmented in flight and scattered the pellets so that most would hit the target (if the pilot's aim was good), regardless of range. The rare instances in which the aim was "bad" but the shell still hit (meaning the cluster hit table roll was low) would result in very few pellets hitting the target. The order of operations that determined that was a bit backwards... but that's how it worked out.

Right now in MWO, the LB10 has a fixed choke, which means the spread is constant, and at extended range tends to be much more "annoyance" than "weapon."

Edited by Vapor Trail, 05 December 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[Pr8Dator]

I now play 1 LBX with 1 AC5 and 1 AC10 and has pretty balanced performance so far... but yes, LBX has been my fav ballistic weapon since TT solely due to the fact that its name sounds so badass but I really hope something can be done to make it stand on its own better... maybe like the rest said, a tighter grouping might do better.

[The Cheese]

Soulscour, on 05 December 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Why you complain about the price? Can't grind 800,000 cbills?

Oh, I can grind that in a couple of matches. It's hard to justify it when it's double the price of an AC/10.

[Strum Wealh]

Vapor Trail, on 05 December 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

And for everyone who's saying the LB-10/x is supposed to be a shotgun, the description and the rules are at odds, because range had no factor in how many pellets hit the target... 2 pellets hitting a target at point blank range was just as likely as all 10 pellets hitting a target at extreme range.

This argued for either a very sophisticated variable choke on the weapon, or a "flak" type shell that fragmented in flight and scattered the pellets so that most would hit the target (if the pilot's aim was good), regardless of range. The rare instances in which the aim was "bad" but the shell still hit (meaning the cluster hit table roll was low) would result in very few pellets hitting the target. The order of operations that determined that was a bit backwards... but that's how it worked out.

Right now in MWO, the LB10 has a fixed choke, which means the spread is constant, and at extended range tends to be much more "annoyance" than "weapon."

Apparently, adjustable chokes for shotguns have been around since at least the 1920s.
And at least some of them can also handle slugs as well as shotshells, an ability that seems to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Given that the LB-X is made of materials that can only be properly created/refined in microgravity conditions, and are mounted on bipedal walking tanks powered by portable and self-contained fusion reactors, assuming that some form of adjustable choke (capable of handling both the slug and cluster rounds) is built into the design doesn't seem too far-fetched...

It would be interesting, IMO, if future improvements to MWO included the LB-X's choke being able to automatically adjust itself in real-time, based on the range to the target and the degree of convergence achieved, when cluster rounds are the currently-selected ammo type, so as to optimize the spread with respect to the current situation at any given time...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 December 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[Wolf Ender]

in MW4 the LBX ACs were balanced and distinct from AC or UACs, and bad-*** in their own way. PGI...figure out how they did it.

[Norris J Packard]

Just add selectable ammo for crying out loud.

[MustrumRidcully]

It needs a buff. Either a tighter (target distance / convergence dependent?), or a solid slug option. But be aware - the latter would simply make the LBX-10 AC a +1 AC/10. That'S what it was in the table top - do we want it to be that in MW:O?

Pr8Dator, on 05 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

It seems like the damage in this game is exactly as canon but are armor values and crit system canon too?

No.

Armor values are doubled (does not apply to internal armour), and when you take internal armour damage, damage may also be applied, as a critical, to one radomly determined item in the mech section (randomization is weighted by the crit slots an item takes, e.g. a high crit slot item is more likely to be hit than a low crit slot item). The damage may be up to tripled, and most items have 10 hit points. Engine has 15 (but it may be that destroying engine hit point has no effect for now), and Gauss Rifles have 3.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 December 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[SirSlaughter]

I'm gonna try a 3-LBX / 3 Med las Ilya this evening.

[xenoglyph]

Just lower the cooldown time for now. Instant buff that's easy to implement until selectable ammo is added in.

[John MatriX82]

I went for the selectable ammo.

Make it that you can switch between buckshot and ac 10 slugs by simply wasting 1 or 2 recycle times and that's it, you'll have a gun worth the 800k cbills and related repair costs.

Until then tighten the d a m n spread or make it like a flak (solid shot that blows to flak and spreads damage once you hit the enemy).

[Omigir]

Well, when advanced ammunition types are added in (AC rounds that arch in at a target and so on and so forth) the solid shot LBX will be back in its place and standard ACs will have once more, a good valid purpose. I think selectable ammo would be good and the option that Vapor Trail gave are probably the way to go.

[Kaelin]

Aethon, on 05 December 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

it would effectively make the AC/10 obsolete, since it's one ton lighter and could do exactly the same thing (and more).

in TT it didn't render the std AC's obsolete;
it was considerably more expensive and could only fire cluster and slug rounds (IIRC).
std AC's had much more specialist ammo available.
Ultra's were considerably more expensive than both and frequently risked jamming.

in MechW 4 the LBX's were almost if not hitscan but the spread was ridiculous. fit a fafnir with four 20's and you win at solaris

TBH I think all the AC's need some love but currently the LBX is the worst off of the lot.

[Woodstock]

there needs to be an option to use the standard solid slug

[Aethon]

Kaelin, on 06 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

in TT it didn't render the std AC's obsolete;
it was considerably more expensive and could only fire cluster and slug rounds (IIRC).
std AC's had much more specialist ammo available.
Ultra's were considerably more expensive than both and frequently risked jamming.

in MechW 4 the LBX's were almost if not hitscan but the spread was ridiculous. fit a fafnir with four 20's and you win at solaris

TBH I think all the AC's need some love but currently the LBX is the worst off of the lot.

The rest my post that you quoted actually says exactly that.

Aethon, on 05 December 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

I haven't actually used them in ages, but I'm pretty sure the only anti-mech munitions available for autocannons were slug, cluster, precision, armour-piercing, caseless, and incendiary, with LBX autocannon only being capable of using slug and cluster. The other specialty rounds, I'm pretty sure, were only for the old-school standard AC's, and maybe for the LAC's that came out later on.

Also, I'm pretty sure flak, flechettes, and things like that were anti-aircraft and anti-infantry rounds (I recall an AC/20 firing a flechette round into a cluster of infantry being described as 'instant gumbo, family-size').

Still, the LBX10 is missing its utility...although, without specialty AC rounds, it would effectively make the AC/10 obsolete, since it's one ton lighter and could do exactly the same thing (and more).

[Kaelin]

Aethon, on 06 December 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

The rest my post that you quoted actually says exactly that.

yes, yes it does >.<

[Frantic Pryde]

None of the options listed in the poll. I want 2 things for LBXs to fix them.

1) being able to switch between slug and cluster (I know this is coming, but will go a long way in helping them.)
2) Make it work like it does in the cannon. The round should blow up into pieces right before hitting the target so that its actually viable at long range when using cluster rounds.

EDIT: Somehow missed the selectable shot option... SO I voted for that

But #2 Is also important I think!

Edited by Frantic Pryde, 06 December 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Frantic Pryde, on 06 December 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

None of the options listed in the poll. I want 2 things for LBXs to fix them.

1) being able to switch between slug and cluster (I know this is coming, but will go a long way in helping them.)
2) Make it work like it does in the cannon. The round should blow up into pieces right before hitting the target so that its actually viable at long range when using cluster rounds.

EDIT: Somehow missed the selectable shot option... SO I voted for that

But #2 Is also important I think!

Your #2 is also arguably wrong...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 06 December 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[Pr8Dator]

SirSlaughter, on 06 December 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

I'm gonna try a 3-LBX / 3 Med las Ilya this evening.

I tried a 3-LBX + 2Mlas config... its very awesome when you fire all 3 LBX at once forming a HUGE cloud of shrapnels. Don't fire them in chain fire. Then follow up with the Mlas for internal damage. It is an extremely effective config but it requires you to use the XL engine which makes the Ilya very weak in a brawl.

[WarRats]

LB-10X is great. I took a stock centurian with the AC/10 and switched to the LB-10x. I also added extra ammo but the main point is my damage went way up. Its very effective vs lights.

[Icebound]

I don't think they're terrible, but for the amount of tonnage they use up you can definitely fit something better.

I only ever really used them for scaring away light mechs, in a brawl you're definitely better off with an AC/10.

I guess I'll have to vote "Buff" then.