186 replies to this topic

[The Mecha Streisand]

Bluten, on 19 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

It was weak before, now it's just trash. I wish it was bad... because that would be an improvement.

I liked it before ECM. The extra range was well worth the price in tons and critical slots, with the possible exception of Frozen City. Now with the current state of overheat, I like what BAP can do AGAIN--we can still lock-up overheated mechs for SRM/LRM, and keep track of their damage/weapons status. And we can FIND shut-down mechs, should they try to hide (if you don't get it, you don't play enough conquest).

BAP has some cool functions. It's just not very effective when ECM is in play. Were BAP the COUNTER to ECM's DISRUPT, then I could see it being a more interesting game.

Perhaps only non-ECM-equipped mechs could carry the BAP as counter to ECM, due to mutual RF interference or some such black magic?

[DocBach]

Strum Wealh, on 10 February 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Expanded ECM rules from Tactical Operations

One caveat to that is the part in the rules saying to be affected by ECM you need to be within the operating radius, and it is not affected by LOS ie LOS that traces through the bubble does not provide ECM's affect against sensors. The second part makes me interpret the rule to read that you need to be inside the circle proper to have the full on sensor jamming effects; outside the bubble the Guardian can mask certain sensor scanning ability to determine chassis type, loadout, damage, ect, but only inside the bubble are locks actually compromised. This would also make it more in line with the descriptions of ECM from the Technical Readout 2750, where it was first introduced to the game:


GUARDIAN ECM SUITE
The Guardian ECM Suite is a broad-spectrum
jamming and electronic countermeasure device,
designed to reduce the efficiency of enemy longrange
scanning and surveillance equipment. The
Guardian interferes with sensor readings, preventing
identification at ranges of more than 180 meters.
Closer than that, 'Mech pilots usually rely on their own
vision in case their sensors cannot override the
Guardian's jamming.

Edited by DocBach, 11 February 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

DocBach, on 11 February 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

One caveat to that is the part in the rules saying to be affected by ECM you need to be within the operating radius, and it is not affected by LOS ie LOS that traces through the bubble does not provide ECM's affect against sensors. The second part makes me interpret the rule to read that you need to be inside the circle proper to have the full on sensor jamming effects; outside the bubble the Guardian can mask certain sensor scanning ability to determine chassis type, loadout, damage, ect, but only inside the bubble are locks actually compromised. This would also make it more in line with the descriptions of ECM from the Technical Readout 2750, where it was first introduced to the game:


GUARDIAN ECM SUITE
The Guardian ECM Suite is a broad-spectrum
jamming and electronic countermeasure device,
designed to reduce the efficiency of enemy longrange
scanning and surveillance equipment. The
Guardian interferes with sensor readings, preventing
identification at ranges of more than 180 meters.
Closer than that, 'Mech pilots usually rely on their own
vision in case their sensors cannot override the
Guardian's jamming.

Except, what the caveat about LOS actually says is:
"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems."
(TacOps, pg. 224)

For comparison, what the basic rules in Total Warfare say (on pg. 134):
"An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Also of note is the rules text for Angel ECM (TacOps, pg. 279):
"The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM (see p. 134, TW), but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."

The "LOS does not affect this radius" statement refers to how a unit within the ECM bubble may still be jammed regardless of whether LOS exists between the unit to be jammed and the ECM suite (e.g. one is still hammed if one is within the bubble but behind a building, hill, or other obstruction).
However, if the unit in question and the ECM carrier are facing each other on open terrain, any LOS actions by the unit (such as weapons fire or most sensor probes) that come into contact with the bubble (even if they go in one side and out the other to reach a target on the opposite side of the bubble, as explained in the ECM example in TW and noted by the "into or through" verbiage used in Angel's description) are still affected.

Additionally: even in "Standard Day" conditions on a clear and open field (so that there are no weather or environmental modifiers, from the Sensor Ranges Tables) and in the total absence of EW or stealth equipment (so that there are no modifiers from the ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table), 'Mech sensors can still fail to pick up an opponent ~27.8% of the time (the combined likelihood of rolling a 9, 10, 11, or 12 based on 2D6 probabilities).
(Imagine the QQ that would result if the radar simply "didn't work" roughly one-third of the time, even in the absence of ECM! )
For standard 'Mech Radar, introducing Guardian (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood of failure-to-detect to 91.6% (with an 8.4% chance of detection within 240 meters ('Mech Radar's "short" range, from the Sensor Ranges Tables)) and introducing Angel (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood to 97.2% (with a 2.8% chance of detection within 240 meters).
For Beagle, introducing Guardian (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood of failure-to-detect to 83.3% (with a 16.7% chance of detection within 360 meters (Beagle's "short" range, from the Sensor Ranges Tables)) and introducing Angel (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood to 91.6% (with an 8.4% chance of detection within 360 meters).

It would seem that, for MWO, the Devs took the TT system with those likelihoods in mind and (for now? ) simplified it so that , in TT terms, the Sensor Roll pretty much always fails.

[trebormills]

Biased poll is biased

I do feel BAP needs to be a bit more useful- I have one fitted to my current Hunchie for giggles

a)yes
b)no
c)make it do what TT says
d)who cares
e)its op
f) other

[Sifright]

Thread title is so lewd and lascivious.


do go on dear.

[DocBach]

Strum Wealh, on 12 February 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

stuff about Double Blind Rules, and having to be in an ECM bubble to be affected

http://bg.battletech...ic,27035.0.html

So I got curious and asked the writers of the board game what "in the radius of ECM meant" and the response I got was:

"In order for ECM to have an effect in Doubleblind rules, the affected unit must be within the ECM's bubble. It is not sufficient for an ECM bubble to be in line of sight."

So more or less, ECM shouldn't be a radar jammer unless you are inside the bubble. And for this topic, Beagle should have a bit better success of targeting an ECM shrouded 'Mech as it has a bonus to sensor rolls.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

*waves magic wand*
Welcome back to the world of the living, my forsaken thread and suggestion.

[StalaggtIKE]

I believe that BAP should be buffed in a way, so ECM would still be useful, even if its role was changed to that of only a counter to advance electronic systems. BAP is supposed to provide the user with a targeting range advantage, however ECM cuts everyone's default range by 75%. Thus doing a better job. Currently ECM is providing a 600m disparity in radar detection, out performing the BAP:


Over half of BAP's abilities can be duplicated through the use of modules. On top of that ECM completely negates it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Since teh Guardian is a supped up Angel ECM make the Beagle a supped up Bloodhound! Balance restored.

[Kdogg788]

StalaggtIKE, on 13 March 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

I believe that BAP should be buffed in a way, so ECM would still be useful, even if its role was changed to that of only a counter to advance electronic systems. BAP is supposed to provide the user with a targeting range advantage, however ECM cuts everyone's default range by 75%. Thus doing a better job. Currently ECM is providing a 600m disparity in radar detection, out performing the BAP:


Over half of BAP's abilities can be duplicated through the use of modules. On top of that ECM completely negates it.

True that they can be duplicated but with both BAP and the modules they stack. I have these mounted on a couple mechs and the effect is noticable.

My hypothesis is thus:

Add the ability for BAP armed mechs to use streaks against ECM mechs, and the game will be MUCH more balanced and most all the complaints about ECM lights will be instantly negated.

-k

[Hellboy561]

No no no no no, ECM is designed to COUNTER BAP.

so again, no no no no no

[Kdogg788]

Hellboy561, on 13 March 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

No no no no no, ECM is designed to COUNTER BAP.

so again, no no no no no

It wouldn't counter every effect of ECM, only allow the use of streaks or streak counter for non ECM lights. That is the main issue with ECM in this game and why PGI needs to come up with counter after counter and upcoming command posts regarding its balance. This does not have to be 100% faithful to Tabletop Battletech. The fanboys need to give a little in regard to TT authenticity in order to achieve a more balanced game state for THIS particular game.

-k

[Glythe]

Current BAP implementation is stupid.


Let's give it what it is supposed to do:

Relay all target data for mechs in range.

You can keep the increased sensor and lock range because while that is nice it doesn't really matter at all. You use BAP to lock onto mechs that have powered down.


This would be perfect for Ravens....... Run into enemy with ECM active meanwhile relay all target data of mechs caught in ECM radius.



On top of this we could make it non-removable in the 3L and prevent the cheesiest build in the entire game!

[StalaggtIKE]

Kdogg788, on 13 March 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

True that they can be duplicated but with both BAP and the modules they stack. I have these mounted on a couple mechs and the effect is noticable.

Yes and no. Yes they can stack, however ECM cuts the BAP range advantage right off the bat. Only the modules can "penetrate" through ECM. Technically speaking, the modules are superior to the BAP. They take no tonnage or space.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 13 March 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[Kill Dozer]

BAP should be able to hold at least a 12 pack and ice because it's not currently good for anything else.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Kill Dozer, on 13 March 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

BAP should be able to hold at least a 12 pack and ice because it's not currently good for anything else.

Sadly it can't even do that. But the ECM sure can.

[Shadowsword8]

BAP could use a buff, but not a big one. It is already worth taking if you have free tonnage but lack space to put one more DHS, or if you play a lot with LRM. A big buff would make it a must-have, and that's no good.

Or, you could make it counter ECM, which would be great. Everyone would take one, so ECM users would stop taking ECM. Then most would drop BAP, ECM users would once again put ECM on theirs, and a balance point would be reached eventually.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 14 March 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Zerberus]

On tho TT vy MWO portion: Yes, To a very large extent ECM iin fact really does exactly what the rules say it does. The problem is the different application. Nobody I`ve ever played TT with has ever equipped more that 2 mechs with an ECM unit, and has used that to cover the entire 5 man lance.

That is NOT the same thing as 1/2-3/4 of an 8 man lance equipping it, making coverage abolute, total, and uncounterable by anything except an identiacally equipped lance qith equally as many ECM units. On TT this wastes precious tonnage for weapons, ammo, armor, HS, Artemis, TAG, NARC, a BAP..... It does here, too, but the difference is not as pronounced, esp. in random drops. You know, the things you need to take out the ECM units once you`ve identified them and nullified their ECM. Something that actually works in tt because you don`t have entire lances randomly flipping it from counter to cover, you have a 10 second frame where you cannot switch it back, you cannot swith it on and off in teh same round, meaning for a full 10 yeconds you ARE a valid target for everybody within sensor range (assuming you aren`t covered by another and he`s not being counterd, assuming blahblahyaddayadda). In TT, 5 on 5 with 2 ecm lances, the advantage flips from round to round and lucky shots decide teh outcome, 8 vs 8 would essentially be a full on stalemate with no tactical advantage for either team, or only for 10 seconds here, 10 seconds there, dispersed about the map.

This just flat out doesn`twork when you can toggle the switch like a machine gun AND aim with surcical precision. Especially not when even looking directly at the target with a beagle and an artemis still does lock on fast enough to allow you to fire before lock is lost. A key element of TT ECM is that units that switched it to counter would immediately get hailed on by fire from EVERY direction, as the jamming is an enemy active signal that shows up like a huge "SHOOT HERE" sign on everybody`s targeting displays, which I would compare to active sonar "pings" from a submarine, which give away the sub`s exact location, direction , and speed to any other sub in range, giving them a complete firing solution almost instantly. This is why sub drivers try not to ever use it, especially the boomers (BM Subs)

Since the ONLY viable tactic is equipping counter-ecm, as even PPC disabling does not help when his buddy 150 yards away also has ECM (nice try, though), and the stacking takes no end as even rookies appear to be buying 3ls and DDCs more and more as their first mech, there will eventually be a "cleansing" of all nonECM units from the PUGS except for the trials and cadets that can`t afford their own mech, yet. If this remains unaddressed.

There is an additional downside, one much worse.

People that are new will then INEVITABLY constantly be put into "full ECM" matches where they cannot acquire a target or discern friend from foe, or even see anybody on the minimap. Any attempts at becoming a team player are nipped in the bud because there is absolutely no information to assist them. The harder to crack ones will notice things and add 1+1 together and buy a 3l. Tose that want fun won`T find it, will think "maybe when I buy my own mech it will get better", will purchase something without ECM, and will quit a few days later because the game is "so stupidly hard". I have 3 people I turned on to the game, all former CS players. 2 havent logged in in months due to former issues not biing addressed in a timely fashion (knockdown and R+R, I`m trying). One started last week and has described exactly what I just stated, "Bescheuert schwer, wie schaffst du es da überhaupt den richtigen zu treffen oder zu wissen wo die anderen sind? Die hauem mich immer mit einem schuss weg. Ist das wirklich nicht Pay to Win?"." - transl. "Insanely hard, how do you manage to even know where your friends are, much less hit the right one when you finally find them? They always kill me with one shot, are you sure this si not P2W?"

He loves the way his trebuchet moves, he feels like he`s playing quake in a battle robot, but running around aimlessly getting snipered by an enemy nobody can see only keeps you entertained for so long... And what he describes sound like the same ECM blackout that`s forcing me to take the DC as my next atlas instead of the K I would have much preferred, and aggressively redesign my intended build away from any weapons that require actual targeting and leave both the RS and DC in teh hangar to collect dust..

All for the sole purpose of hoping that there`s a Dire Wolf variant with ECM, because if ECMs is not redesigned to fit the different gameplay of MWO vs TT by the time the clans come... Well, then there is no point in purchasing my "signature" Mech because it will no longer be battlefield effective due to the hardwired internals, at which point I will almost certainly see no point in staying.

Edited by Zerberus, 17 March 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Merky Merc]

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

On top of this we could make it non-removable in the 3L and prevent the cheesiest build in the entire game!

I left the BAP in my 3L, it still runs the speed cap 2 SSRM2s and 3MLs. Idk that it does anything, but I want to be ready.. or something.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

*waves magic wand*
Arise once again my ancient thread, because your poll needs more votes.