186 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

BAP should allow the user to achieve locks at double lock-on time when inside the "detecting shut down mechs" range (180m IIRC). It should not allow sharing target data (since any mech that is close enough to target an enemy under a hostile ECM umbrella is inside the jamming range). It should also allow you to detect hostiles regardless of LOS while within the 180m range.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

in all other mechwarrior games bap countered ecm

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

fccolhitman, on 13 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

in all other mechwarrior games bap countered ecm

Or cancel each other one. Sadly here, it's just ECM works, BAP doesn't do anything.

[Chrithu]

Apoc1138, on 13 December 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

so no, BAP is not supposed to be an automatic counter to all ECM, otherwise ECM would be completely pointless and BAP would be OP

Agree.

I would view it the other way around: BAP should not counter ECM. But ECM should counter a useful BAP.

In my view a useful BAP is restricted to certain mechs/variants as the ECM is and as a tradeoff give this mech/variant a X m 360° radar that does not need Line of sight to detect mechs.

This function is broken by ECM in so far that the range of the scout's targeting is reduced to the normal range and he again needs a line of sight to detect a mech. But in contrast to non-BAP mechs it still can lock on to ECMed targets and share that info as long as it is outside of an ECM equipped mechs 180 m radius. That shared lock on though is only useful to relay enemy positions but cannot be used to lock LRMs on to an ECM covered mech.

I hope it becomes clear where I am heading and what I am meaning. If you have questions or see a flaw feel free to comment. It's just an idea that would not need a nerf on the ECM and still would bring the Information Warfare devices more in line in my view.

Edit: I have to add some more restriction: No mech/variant should be able to equip both devices at the same time.

On a sidenote: I did not cast a vote as the vote gives no real choice the way the answers are phrased (read: is biased).

Edited by Jason Parker, 13 December 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[TungstenWall]

I'm sure im not the first to think of this.

While i was driving, i came up with an idea to make BAP useful.
When within 1000 meters of an ECM source, BAP will add an Icon on you HUD that will point in the direction of the closest ECM. (Taken from Assassins Creed Multiplayer) As the player with BAP gets closer to the ECM, the marker becomes more and more inaccurate, until eventually it reports ECM in all directions (when within 180 meters).

I would suggest adding [BAP] over mechs also with this change.

Edited by TungstenWall, 13 December 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[stimpeh]

yeah I also think the problem with ECM is the missing counters to it. As BAP is quite usless at the moment it should be given some counter to make it viable. I imagine something like it enables its carrier to target ECM shielded mechs again at short range and relays that info back to the team. Missiles should be able to lock on again at a slower rate and with a bigger chance to miss when ifred or something like this.
This way we could have the TAG as medium range ECM counter and BAP as short range counter, both only being able to unshield 1 mech at a time... I think this would bring back some variety of mech choices, encourage teamplay and make BAP actually useable.

EDIT: to point that out again as it was mentioned a couple of times: I think when BAP doesnt rela info back to the team it would still stay useless. Because at 180m I dont need BAP to target a mech, I could simply shoot it with LOS. And if im in a missile boat I still can do nothing with BAP because of minimum range. To make it usefuly imho it needs to send info to the team but at a severe penalty for them so it does not counter ECM completely

Edited by stimpeh, 13 December 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Ursh]

Pretty amazing they've managed to come up with one piece of technology that counters everything, but their sensor technology can't get around anything.

In Battletech Canon, sorry for mentioning, they say mechs have Magnetic Anomaly Detectors. How do you jam those exactly? A f**king metal detector is one of the simplest devices possible. Unless you're spritzing random metal out in the air, it's actually pretty f**king hard to fool this one.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Ursh, on 13 December 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Pretty amazing they've managed to come up with one piece of technology that counters everything, but their sensor technology can't get around anything.

I guess our sensor technology is a decade behind our jamming technology.

[FrostCollar]

Bluten, on 13 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

I guess our sensor technology is a decade behind our jamming technology.

It's lostech.

[Deadoon]

FrostCollar, on 15 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

It's lostech.

Until recently, the bap and gecm were both lostech, and even then the bap isn't really that great.

[FrostCollar]

Deadoon, on 15 December 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Until recently, the bap and gecm were both lostech, and even then the bap isn't really that great.

Yeah, I'm joking. In this game most of the effects of the BAP can be replicated with modules that don't weigh anything, so if this game had a separate continuity I wouldn't be surprised if that technology had simply fallen out of favor instead of actually being lost.

Edited by FrostCollar, 15 December 2012 - 03:43 PM.

[GatorG]

I have mentioned elsewhere a x.5/x2 approach with BAP. For a BAP equipped mech the ECM bubble is reduced from 180m to 90m, and the available detection/transmission range is increased from 200m to 400m.

[Raidyr]

It blows my mind that BAP weighs more and does next to nothing compared to ECM, which is actually carrying games right now when used properly. A similar contrast can be drawn between the TAG and the NARC. Where as the TAG has always been a decent piece of kit, its getting it's ranged almost doubled while the NARC is going from a 15 second to 20 second lifetime with no changes to unit weight, ammo weight, and heat.

I haven't played a game with such a bipolar balance dynamic since Battlefield 3.

[FrostCollar]

GatorG, on 15 December 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I have mentioned elsewhere a x.5/x2 approach with BAP. For a BAP equipped mech the ECM bubble is reduced from 180m to 90m, and the available detection/transmission range is increased from 200m to 400m.

Increasing detection range could be a good idea, reducing the size of the bubble (not effects) isn't. Though we may have complaints with ECM I think the general idea of having a specialist mech able to support others isn't a bad idea, but halve the range and that ability pretty much disappears.

Anyways, I can see in my mind's eye the image of friendly mechs crowding around an ECM light as the bubble shrinks and shrinks and eventually falling over each other once knock-downs are re-implemented.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

GatorG, on 15 December 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I have mentioned elsewhere a x.5/x2 approach with BAP. For a BAP equipped mech the ECM bubble is reduced from 180m to 90m, and the available detection/transmission range is increased from 200m to 400m.

You need at least 500m for LRMs to have a point, which is why I suggested that distance. If you have to be any closer than that just to get a lock, you may as well shoot Large Lasers instead. But even with a mid range lock they'd still be delaying your timer and gutting your Artemis. It would return some degree of reliability at least... vs the completely inability shoot at any meaningful range. You could then play your luck with a Tag to gamble beyond that range. In other words, if they made the BAP counter ECM and restore you to 500, we'd be in a good, much better balanced, position. But they aren't doing that... All they plan to give you is a Tag range increase, won't be enough. It's not a reliable enough tool to be 1 and only counter here. It won't change much by itself, nor will it pull the BAP out of the trashcan.

Edited by Bluten, 15 December 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[GatorG]

Something that occurred to me, if I an ECM equipped chassis is between my mech and a non ECM mech, but we are both more than 180m away from it, assume all of us are in a straight line and open terrain, can I get a lock on the other mech through the bubble? This may be posted somewhere, but I do not recall reading it, and it is difficult to determine how this works without knowing people on the other team to set it up.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

You can, but people usually huddle together now thanks to this device, especially if they see a single barrage fly across the sky. The next thing they will do is run towards the nearest ECM umbrella on their team and you won't be able to lock anymore.

[Taizan]

Bluten, on 13 December 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Wow, I made this thread? I forgot all about it...

Yeah I kind of pre-necro'ed it because I'm currently trying to find out how BAP interacts with other systems and modules, while searching around I found this thread. For the Guardian ECM suite we have a nice info page for prior systems there is very little detailed information and the ingame tool tips are *****, to say it nicely.

BAP weighing in at 1.5 tons is (afaik) completely negated by ECM, whereas technically it should just have a decreased performance.

- Doubled lock on times should still be partially reduced by BAP (A= ACTIVE)
- Extended sensor range should be only partially reduced for people using BAP when encountering ECM and only be fully negated if they are being disrupted

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

They should both conflict with each other for reduced effects, but currently that isn't the case.(For some reason)

[ApathyZer0]

Biased polls aren't worth voting in. While I do agree that BAP could use some more versatility I don't necessarily agree that being a hard counter to ECM is the answer.