142 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

yes, because using ECM to shield you only from objects within 180 meters is VERY useful.

Oh wait... it protects things WITHIN that 180 meters from detection from OUTSIDE>.. damn is that how that works?!!?!?!?

I dunno if you ever played StarCraft, but in the Brood War expansion, there's a REASON why the Protoss Arbiters couldn't cloak each other along with nearby friendlies...

Heck, the same is true in SCII with Motherships: they can't cloak each other, but they can cloak friendlies.

[Nightcrept]

ECm has made the game a mindless brawler.

Anyone claiming it takes tactics or whatever to beat ecm is simply pandering to game play that they prefer not to proper game balance.

I could care less about the elitist pre-mades and it very well maybe balanced for them. But since I don't and won't play in a pre-made i don't know.

However in pug play where I live ecm is op.

It completely removes two complete lines of weapons from the game. Tag is useless no matter the range unless you get a designated mech to tag for you and that is again useless in puging.

I run both a d-dc brawler and a lrm boat.

And if your going to try to say that following the ecm mech until you run into the other team who is following their ecm boat is anything other then stupid mode then your delusional.

Edited by Nightcrept, 06 December 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[Sevaradan]

Noakei Siegel, on 06 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

because I can?

what kind of question is that?

learn to overcome obstacles, play clever and be better than the enemy, that is what wins games...and I seriously wish the QQ would finally stop. it destroyed so many promissing games, because some people want everything easymode.

this, ecm isn't the problem.

[Volthorne]

Noakei Siegel, on 06 December 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Tell that to the full ECM - team, that we just ripped apart without even using ECM ourselves...if it would be so easy, ECM - teams would win over everyone, they do not, so it seems to take skill to use it correctly...and listening to some of the guys on the Open MWO TS it turns out to be quite a science, to coordinate and employ it well....and as stated many times before... I DO NOT CARE ABOUT PuGs being loners in a teambased game is their decision, not mine or others... 8vs8 is florishing and the waiting time to get matched up is like 1-3 seconds the most, so it seems a lot of people prefer to play as a team, even though they know they will be matched against other 8man premades.

And how do you know you weren't simply against a really bad team? If you "ripped them apart like a hot knife thorugh butter" - to paraphrase your post - then you need to remember that the MM still hasn't been implemented, so if you did that well against a bad team, having ECM or not wouldn't have mattered for either of your teams.

Edited by Volthorne, 06 December 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Nightcrept]

Volthorne, on 06 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

And how do you know you weren't simply against a really bad team? If you "ripped them apart like a hot knife thorugh butter" - to paraphrase your post - then you need to remember that the MM still hasn't been implemented, so if you did that well against a bad team, having ECM or not wouldn't have mattered for either of your teams.

He's already said he hates pugs and doesn't care about true game balance. So at this point he's trolling.

[Tilon]

Area effect Null Signature System is bollocks.

The simple fact is: It's a lot easier to jam electronics than to mask your own signatures.

ECM is currently acting to both jam electronics at close range, AND it area effect masks friendly signatures from long range.

Both of these, combined, in a 1.5 ton package. Ton for ton, by far the most powerful upgrade available in the game.

Read on Sarna about how difficult it was to develop a Null Signature System for ONE mech. Read about all the drawbacks it cost.

Then consider that currently, the 1.5 ton ECM system is both jamming AND operating as a Null Signature System for MULTIPLE mechs.

With no drawback, other than the 1.5 tons.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Nightcrept]

In the military we use harm missiles which home in on ecm and other radiation devices like radar signals. Simply adding lrm harm ammo that you can switch to in game would work as well.

Also sidewinders and other missiles that home in on heat are almost completely unaffected by ecm.

[TANTE EMMA]

turning into a brawling game?

well, we do not brawl, we roll, keep moving to get the better position and firing solutions over the enemy, call targets, focus fire and use direct fire to take out the weak spots.
I think we do not even have a single indirect fire build in our arsenal...

I take it that some people have never played MW4 / No Radar...

[Bishop Steiner]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

So the ECM is jamming friendly mechs...to prevent them being targeted from farther away?

Sorry, that makes no sense. ECM is a limited range sensor jammer. How do you jam your own teammates to prevent them being targeted from outside your ECM range?

See, this is where you pro-ECM people lose your marbles. ECM is a jammer, not a cloaker.

It affects enemy units, not friendly units.

glad to see your reading comprehension is ZERO. ECM puts out a "bubble" encompassing 180 meters, of interference. Sensors attempting to penetrate said bubble are baffled, foiled, and otherwise spoofed.

excerpt:

Three years ago, the U.S. began using wearable JCREW jammers. JCREW is a further development of the first jammer, the Warlock, which appeared in 2003, mounted in vehicles. The jammers have gone through many revisions, to add more frequencies and better software.
Rolling along in a convoy, with one or more jammers broadcasting, the troops have an electronic "bubble" that made them safe from any wireless IED they had not spotted. It's not uncommon for vehicles to have had an IED go off behind them, the result of the IED detonation crew continuing to send the signal, believing that there might be something wrong with their equipment. (In other words the signals when they hit the bubble are scrambled and defeated, hence they 1) cannot reach desired target, and 2) also cannot "return" to sender, which means the "signal" is LOST. Hence no return info outside the bubble) In those cases, the patrol often turns around and goes looking for the enemy team, while supply convoys just continue on their way..
In addition to jammers like JCREW and Warlock, several of the U.S. Air Force and Navy electronic warfare aircraft are able to perform the same functions, but over a wider area. This was often used when American troops were in action against the enemy, shutting down IED detonation over the entire combat area, as U.S. troops moved around seeking out and fighting the enemy.

[Volthorne]

Nightcrept, on 06 December 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Also sidewinders and other missiles that home in on heat are almost completely unaffected by ecm.

But then people will ask for chaff.

[Tilon]

Nightcrept, on 06 December 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

In the military we use harm missiles which home in on ecm and other radiation devices like radar signals. Simply adding lrm harm ammo that you can switch to in game would work as well.

Also sidewinders and other missiles that home in on heat are almost completely unaffected by ecm.

This is my point exactly. Making ECM immune to long range missile attack makes no sense whatsoever. How could it possibly both jam and cloak at the same time?

In Battletech, all methods to mask a mech's heat signature are costly, have heat drawbacks, and only work for that one mech. Currently, ECM is deploying this in an area-effect for no drawback.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nightcrept, on 06 December 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

In the military we use harm missiles which home in on ecm and other radiation devices like radar signals. Simply adding lrm harm ammo that you can switch to in game would work as well.

Also sidewinders and other missiles that home in on heat are almost completely unaffected by ecm.

Heh, I just recommended to my unit equipping our Jenners as "Wild Weasels" and siccing em on ECM-Commandos/Cicadas. Got a couple of Nutjobs running 6 medium pulse laser jobs... (of course much more than one alpha you got a shutdown Wild Weasel, which usually means a dead one)

[Ferc Polo]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

When the Guardian's limited range actually becomes a drawback in game, it will be balanced.

There it is. This is all that needs to be said. The ECM should not shield mechs from detection unless the mech trying to detect them is within its range. This whole cloaking field ******** makes no sense.

Pretty much any argument for ECM as it currently stands should just be answered with: "When the Guardian's limited range actually becomes a drawback in game, it will be balanced."

It's not about adapting to it...it's that it's a ***** feature the way it's built...sure you can play with it...you can get around it...you can adapt to it. But that doesn't change that it's a ***** implementation of the ECM idea and needs to be looked at. We're beta testers, right? So why do we have to deal with a ***** feature? Why not report that it's a problem, why it's a problem, and have it adjusted?

If you think the ECM is fine as is then you are not looking at this from a game-state point of view and should probably take some time to re-evaluate.

Edited by Ferc Polo, 06 December 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Tilon]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

glad to see your reading comprehension is ZERO. ECM puts out a "bubble" encompassing 180 meters, of interference. Sensors attempting to penetrate said bubble are baffled, foiled, and otherwise spoofed.

That is not how Guardian ECM works. Stop posting United States technology in a discussion about Battletech.

Once again, from Sarna:

Quote

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters.

That disproves your bubble theory. If your bubble theory were true, its range would not be its biggest drawback.


Post something from Battletech that proves your 'bubble' theory of ECM. The simple fact is that ECM jams enemy sensors within its range, it does not act as a bubble stopping anything from entering it from outside.

The enemy mech has to be WITHIN your bubble to jam its targeting sensors. If it is OUTSIDE your range, then your infrared signature is still there (Your mech generates heat) and the mech's computer can lock on to you.

As the fellow above said, there are missiles that specifically home in on ECM systems, because ECM systems give their position away by being NOISY.

So all you have to do to prove your point is post something, anything from Battletech that shows ECM being effective against direct fire LRMs at long range.

You won't find a shred of evidence supporting that claim.

If anything, an LRM mech outside of your range should lock onto an ECM-spewing mech FASTER, since you are a noise maker!

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[Nightcrept]

Noakei Siegel, on 06 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

turning into a brawling game?

well, we do not brawl, we roll, keep moving to get the better position and firing solutions over the enemy, call targets, focus fire and use direct fire to take out the weak spots.
I think we do not even have a single indirect fire build in our arsenal...

I take it that some people have never played MW4 / No Radar...

Yes a brawling game. The majority of players are going to be pugs that is true in almost every game in existence. And in pug play ecm has creating mindless brawling.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

glad to see your reading comprehension is ZERO. ECM puts out a "bubble" encompassing 180 meters, of interference. Sensors attempting to penetrate said bubble are baffled, foiled, and otherwise spoofed.

excerpt:

Three years ago, the U.S. began using wearable JCREW jammers. JCREW is a further development of the first jammer, the Warlock, which appeared in 2003, mounted in vehicles. The jammers have gone through many revisions, to add more frequencies and better software.
Rolling along in a convoy, with one or more jammers broadcasting, the troops have an electronic "bubble" that made them safe from any wireless IED they had not spotted. It's not uncommon for vehicles to have had an IED go off behind them, the result of the IED detonation crew continuing to send the signal, believing that there might be something wrong with their equipment. (In other words the signals when they hit the bubble are scrambled and defeated, hence they 1) cannot reach desired target, and 2) also cannot "return" to sender, which means the "signal" is LOST. Hence no return info outside the bubble) In those cases, the patrol often turns around and goes looking for the enemy team, while supply convoys just continue on their way..
In addition to jammers like JCREW and Warlock, several of the U.S. Air Force and Navy electronic warfare aircraft are able to perform the same functions, but over a wider area. This was often used when American troops were in action against the enemy, shutting down IED detonation over the entire combat area, as U.S. troops moved around seeking out and fighting the enemy.

Your quote is nonsense.

There are many ways to counter what your talking about. The simplest being a stronger transmitter then the jammer. I am a intel officer who deals with what your talking about directly.

Edit: didn't see your post about wild weasels. So you see the point of counters.

Edited by Nightcrept, 06 December 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[p00k]

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

this, ecm isn't the problem.

exactly. ecm is fine. just like any other equipment selection, everything has advantages and disadvantages. large lasers are viable in their long range, good damage, and great damage per heat. the tradeoff of course being one of the worst damage per ton. compare that to the medium laser, with much better damage per ton, but slightly less heat efficient and shorter range than the large. or the small laser, which is very tonnage efficient but painfully short range and hardpoint inefficient

with the ecm, sure it's incredibly powerful and game-changing, but it comes with the extremely high tradeoff of.... 1.5 tons and 2 crit spots. and you can only take it on certain mechs. but not any of the good mechs, just mechs like the atlas d-dc, which was terrible before they added ecm. after all, it's hardly a must have piece of equipment that having more of determines who wins as much as any factor except perhaps which side has trial mechs, right?

wait? what's that? 1.5 tons and 2 crits isn't alot? and the ddc isn't trash? oh, never mind then.

Edited by p00k, 06 December 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[FallenFactol]

Some people are dumb, 8 lrm boats should not be able to own the battlefield over a nicely balanced group of mechs, There are counters to ECM, god forbid you team up and use strategy.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

This is my point exactly. Making ECM immune to long range missile attack makes no sense whatsoever. How could it possibly both jam and cloak at the same time?

In Battletech, all methods to mask a mech's heat signature are costly, have heat drawbacks, and only work for that one mech. Currently, ECM is deploying this in an area-effect for no drawback.

except as noted the "heat" seekers in Btech don't exist yet, and the seeker is in the warhead, not from passive info in the mechs targeting computer. Since most "heat seekers" use a form of infrared homing, and the beagle is specifically stated to spoof IR, it becomes a moot point. Especially since even if you could get a launch to lock from a distance (which the IR lase, once entering the interference "bubble" will be distorted, spoofed or otherwise countered) would by your own example, then be spoofed upon entering the bubble. Either way it could not recieve returning signals to "home"

see:
"Infrared missile seekers of the first generation typically used a spinning reticle with a pattern on it that modulates infrared energy before it falls on a detector (A mode of operation called Spin scan). The patterns used differ from seeker to seeker, but the principle is the same. By modulating the signal, the steering logic can tell where the infrared source of energy is relative to the missile direction of flight. In more recent designs the missile optics will rotate and the rotating image is projected on a stationary reticle (a mode called Conical scan) or stationary set of detectors which generates a pulsed signal which is processed by the tracking logic. Most shoulder launched (MANPADS) systems use this type of seeker, as do many air defense systems and air to air missiles (for example the AIM-9L)."

see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIRCM

[Tilon]

FallenFactol, on 06 December 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Some people are dumb, 8 lrm boats should not be able to own the battlefield over a nicely balanced group of mechs, There are counters to ECM, god forbid you team up and use strategy.

What counter? having to hold a TAG laser on a mech constantly isn't a counter, it's an insult.

You are once again proving the point that ECM fans just hate missiles. Yes, streaks are OP and need a targeting nerf, but balance missiles, don't add in super jammer cloaking device.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

except as noted the "heat" seekers in Btech don't exist yet, and the seeker is in the warhead, not from passive info in the mechs targeting computer.

Technically, all LRMs at this point in Btech are dumbfire, yes?

Since that's not how they are implemented in game, that's not how we should be balancing them in game.

The simple fact is that ECM is not supposed to alter the accuracy of direct fire LRMs from long range. ECM is a short range jamming device. It is not a cloaking device.

Go back and read the pastes about the Null Signature System. It is very costly, has significant heat drawbacks, and only works for one mech.

Currently, the ECM in game is both a jammer and an area effect Null Signature System.

Sorry, that's broken.

[Kraven Kor]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

What counter? having to hold a TAG laser on a mech constantly isn't a counter, it's an insult.

You are once again proving the point that ECM fans just hate missiles. Yes, streaks are OP and need a targeting nerf, but balance missiles, don't add in super jammer cloaking device.

Yet it allowed a team to completely destroy us last night despite having three ECM mechs... and we may not be the bestest team ever, but we don't suck...