142 replies to this topic

[EmeraldSongbird]

ReD3y3, on 06 December 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

However the groups we have had the hardest time with are the ones that use LRMs effectively in direct fire with TAG.

LRMs are still very very good.

I am 12 year old noob pugger and TAG is suck cuz ECM is OP I can no lock on teh emenies without aiming it suck cuz I need try to shoot.

[Sevaradan]

Doobles, on 06 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

I am 12 year old noob pugger and TAG is suck cuz ECM is OP I can no lock on teh emenies without aiming it suck cuz I need try to shoot.

LOL... not sure if serious or troll bait...


I'll bite...

L2P.

[TheBossHammer]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Also, I realize this level of coordination is not easy for PUGs. But by pugging, one already assumes that one cannot control the quality of their team, so if they bukild mechs that require support/ cooperation, they have bigger issues.

Mama always said: "PUG-ing is like a box of Chock-o-lats. You never know what you're gonna get" (but you can bet yo azz at least one will be a coconut cream filled mother****** just waiting to leave a bad taste in your mouth!)

And from the Most Interesting MechWarrior in the Galaxy:
"I don't always PUG, but when I do, I only use Direct Fire Weapons!"

Gospel. Especially the last part.

[Ferc Polo]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

The problem is that ECM is currently breaking its own rules.

ECM works by broadcasting noise, interrupting electronic communication.

You cannot simultaneously be an a ECM and cloak your position. The two are opposites.

Currently, ECM is stopping communications, somehow HIDING ITS OWN NOISE (a mech with ecm should be EASIER to pick out and target since it is BROADCASTING NOISE) and hiding its own heat signature as well as his friends!

ECM acting as an ECM and a cloak simultaneously laughs in the face of reality and is a joke. There is no reason you should have to use tag from 600 meters because:

A. You are out of its jamming range
B. It is broadcasting noise and giving its position away
C. It still has a heat signature(unless you people actually think ECM hides HEAT)

I know people like it because they hate streaks. Fix streaks, they are op.

We dont need a cloaking device/ECM combo in the game, operating on magic principles.

How is ECM disabling the targeting equipment of mecha outside its range? How is it hiding its own heat SIG? How is it hiding its own NOISE BROADCAST?

An ECM that can hide its own noise broadcast is an impressive trick indeed. If you think it's not out of whack as currently implemented, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I would like to sell you.

Oh, and its broken from a game design standpoint too, because for 1.5 tons, you get an ecm/pseudo cloak combo that renders an entire class of weapons useless.

You'd think they would know how to target a heat sig in the 31st century. What exactly is ecm cloaking, since the mech 800 meters out is not within the jamming bubble?

Thank god someone is using logic. This is my #1 frustration with ECM...it's not based on anything...It's like a cloaking device, not an ECM. It's supposed to be jamming you with signal noise...if that's the case you should be able to tell where the signal is originating...our mechs are able to walk around and climb mountains...if we can build machines that can do that with 2 legs we can DEFINITELY filter out white noise or program an algorithm to locate the source...especially with 7 other mechs around to use for triangulation purposes.

ECM is WAY overpowered. You can argue all you want but you're wrong. It just is.

[Tilon]

RumRunner151, on 06 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

I dont know what game you are playing but in mine I see ECM bubbled mechs with heat vision just fine and TAG does not work past 450m.

And yet you can't lock onto said heat signature and FIRE ZE MISSILES. Hence why I call it a pseudo cloak.

Ceistant, on 06 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

ECM is not a cloaking device... Check out the links below and you will see how both it was implemented in the original game and in the real world.

www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Countermeasure

Just wait till the Clans come, the Clan ECM is 1 Ton and can could be mounted on nearly anything.

I know what ECM is. I don't need a lesson from you, I've played this stuff for over 10 years.

There is no precedent for an ECM making a mech outside its influence unable to lock onto a heat signature and fire direct LRMs.

Period.

[Tilon]

Ferc Polo, on 06 December 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Thank god someone is using logic. This is my #1 frustration with ECM...it's not based on anything...It's like a cloaking device, not an ECM. It's supposed to be jamming you with signal noise...if that's the case you should be able to tell where the signal is originating...our mechs are able to walk around and climb mountains...if we can build machines that can do that with 2 legs we can DEFINITELY filter out white noise or program an algorithm to locate the source...

And mechs have Infrared and Vislight sensors, allowing mechs to be targeted for LRMs in a way that no ECM can prevent.

The way it is implemented currently makes no sense at all. ECM somehow disables the infrared targeting of a mech 800 meters away, BAP is useless to stop it, and another ECM can't even counter it unless it's close, which makes no sense because the first ECM is affecting units 800 meters away!

What a mess. Stick to having it prevent communications, please. Allow missiles to lock on by hovering the mouse on a target, and fix the OP streaks that only have to lock on once and can fire 30 times.

Problem solved, and a 1.5 ton piece of equipment doesn't run the game anymore.

[SpiralRazor]

Ferc Polo, on 06 December 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Thank god someone is using logic. This is my #1 frustration with ECM...it's not based on anything...It's like a cloaking device, not an ECM. It's supposed to be jamming you with signal noise...if that's the case you should be able to tell where the signal is originating...our mechs are able to walk around and climb mountains...if we can build machines that can do that with 2 legs we can DEFINITELY filter out white noise or program an algorithm to locate the source...especially with 7 other mechs around to use for triangulation purposes.

ECM is WAY overpowered. You can argue all you want but you're wrong. It just is.

Exactly this, and im going to bump this every day

[Walrus Jockey]

Fate 6, on 06 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

In order to use TAG, your mech has to have energy hardpoints.

My A1 doesn't have energy hardpoints.

That's a limitation of the variant, but you don't have to have a TAG to blind fire your LRMs, just means you can't fire and forget, you have to maneuver closer and manually target. Think outside the Targeting Box.

[Skyfaller]

Ceistant, on 06 December 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Simple strategy and team work...

LRMS Boats, forgoing viable builds for maximum LRM Spamming can no longer afford to just sit back and wait for targets to be fed to them. They will need move with a group, or behind a group.

It shows you never played LRM setups. This is just drivel from the blithely ignorant.

1- You do need to move with the group, staying at least 400m behind them. Why? LRM travel time + warning message = any ***** will get into cover if you fire any farther than 600m.

2- 'Maximizing' builds also mean the missile boat is mighty defenseless. It requires the TEAM to cover him so he can support them. I used to run a ZERO armor CatA1 with six LRM15s and later 2xLRM20+2xLRM15 with artemis and 8 tons of ammo. When friendly mechs met enemy mechs my first salvo would critically injure the enemy mech and allow MY TEAM to finish him off in 25% of the time it would normally take. In essence, if the enemy mech was dumb enough to engage my team outside of his cover area he died. That.. is teamwork.

3- Sit back and lob missiles? LOL. You definitely don't know how damn hard it is to get a solid LRM hit in terrain. Only useless LRM boats lob missiles without keeping a map of the terrain and missile flight path in their minds. Here's a hint: you never died to a useless LRM boat. Those that thumped you were firing because they knew their salvos had a high chance to hit you before you ran into cover.

Quote

The new TAG is going to have a longer range, and if the said LRM Boat has one, he can simple TAG his own target, something I personally do a lot. The LRMs can get a lock, although with 25% longer lock on time. Also, you can "blind fire" LRMs directly at the target. If you are in the rear of your lance, you should be able get close enough to hit your target, but still be at enough range for your LRMs to arm.. 400m is the sweet spot, you put the targeting reticle over the mech, fire your LRMs and they swarm to the spot that you manually targeted.

TAG even at long range is utterly stupid. TAG a mech at 800m (for example) requires absolute precision aiming and the INSTANT the tag laser goes off target the lock is lost & hence the missiles fly off target. Also, sitting in the open lasing a target makes your mech be a sitting target for 6 to 10 seconds which is what it takes for the LRM to fly TO target at long range.

400m sweet spot? Thats idiotic. LRM = LONG RANGE MISSILE. It has 1km range. 10 second flight time @ 1km. Firing it at 400m makes it a short range weapon given the fact any mech can rush inside 190m before the LRM mech can reload.

Quote

Strategy + Team Work + Technical and Tactical Proficiency with your chosen mech/build are the keys to winning.

Remember, just because the LRM has 1000m range and can acquire an target lock, doesn't mean that's the only way It can be used. It can be brutal at 300-400m by a pilot using his own TAG system.

So...where's my energy shield and uber hardened armor? It should be fair energy and ballistic systems also get completely countered into uselessness by a single module.

[Mack1]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Man. Since the patch the whining about ECM ruining LRMs has been epic. And patently untrue.

What it HAS done, is forced people to change their approach to using them, tactics and on their mechs, hardware configs.

My Drop Group last night faced groups running 2-3 ECMs minimum, every single drop. We were running 2 ourselves, consistently. One in our Commando Scout, the other in our Atlas D-DC. Our Atlas was armed primarily with 3 ALRM 15 racks, an ECM, an ER Large Laser, and a TAG.
Our Commando had 3 Streak Packs and a TAG to go with it's ECM.

The other mechs fluctuated, with me playing in various Cataphracts and whatnot.

Guess which mech consistently laid at the most damage, EVERY SINGLE MATCH? The supposedly nerfed and useless LRM boat, regularly recording 900+ points of damage.

And it was done through simple teamwork, every mech covering the rest, and when an enemy ECM was in the way, our commando would go set his to "DIsrupt" and focus on said mech, while TAG-ing. Our Atlas also didn't find a hill to hide behind like so many LRM boats prefer but actively maintained a 350-450 meter separation so that he could use his own TAG, macro'd to always on, to lase targets and direct fire his LRMs.

TL;DR.... The point is nothing is OP or Broken with ECM. People just haven't taken the time to find the work arounds. Lack of tactics and adaptability, and laziness make new tech OP, not the tech itself.

***EDIT, also, if they "turtle" under multi-ECM umbrella, it means they lose their ability to maneuver very effectively. And LRMs can be dumb fired at a SPOT. Turtled mechs means little ability to shift and doge, and therefore are succeptible to siege barrages.

That's nice for you and your premade gang, what about lone wolf players in PUG's? Oh right, they are still screwed, looks like your post was busted.

[DoktorVivi]

Skyfaller, on 06 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

So...where's my energy shield and uber hardened armor? It should be fair energy and ballistic systems also get completely countered into uselessness by a single module.

Technically:

http://www.sarna.net.../Reactive_Armor

and

http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor

Though Reflective wasn't developed til 3058 and Reactive til 3063. Also they have drawbacks.

[Harmatia]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Man. Since the patch the whining about ECM ruining LRMs has been epic. And patently untrue.

What it HAS done, is forced people to change their approach to using them, tactics and on their mechs, hardware configs.

My Drop Group last night faced groups running 2-3 ECMs minimum, every single drop. We were running 2 ourselves, consistently. One in our Commando Scout, the other in our Atlas D-DC. Our Atlas was armed primarily with 3 ALRM 15 racks, an ECM, an ER Large Laser, and a TAG.
Our Commando had 3 Streak Packs and a TAG to go with it's ECM.

The other mechs fluctuated, with me playing in various Cataphracts and whatnot.

Guess which mech consistently laid at the most damage, EVERY SINGLE MATCH? The supposedly nerfed and useless LRM boat, regularly recording 900+ points of damage.

And it was done through simple teamwork, every mech covering the rest, and when an enemy ECM was in the way, our commando would go set his to "DIsrupt" and focus on said mech, while TAG-ing. Our Atlas also didn't find a hill to hide behind like so many LRM boats prefer but actively maintained a 350-450 meter separation so that he could use his own TAG, macro'd to always on, to lase targets and direct fire his LRMs.

TL;DR.... The point is nothing is OP or Broken with ECM. People just haven't taken the time to find the work arounds. Lack of tactics and adaptability, and laziness make new tech OP, not the tech itself.

***EDIT, also, if they "turtle" under multi-ECM umbrella, it means they lose their ability to maneuver very effectively. And LRMs can be dumb fired at a SPOT. Turtled mechs means little ability to shift and doge, and therefore are succeptible to siege barrages.

Dude people just don't want to adapt. I do agree with you, however.

MadcatX, on 06 December 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

My only small gripe with TAG is that takes up an energy hardpoint.

As for LRM's being useless, lets not kid ourselves and say they're as good as they used to be pre-patch. They're not useless, just less effective and will lose lock more often (even with TAG)

They were easy to use and did a lot of damage, why should anyone think it would stay that way. You get a lot of bang-for-buck, but you got to work harder to open that shot.

[Naeron66]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

My Drop Group

And that is the issue with ECM. In an organised group against other organised groups its ok. They could do pretty much anything with ECM and in group v group it would be ok. Your quoted damage is irrelevant as in an organised group LRMs were much more effective than solo LRM players before ECM arrived. I have never managed to get that amount of damage while solo pugging, but I have when in a premade.

Solo players do not have the luxury of that level of organisation, they can't even guarantee that they will have any ECM on their side. ECM can easily cripple LRM and SRM use when solo pugging.

[Bishop Steiner]

wanderer, on 06 December 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

Except, you know that if it's on one of those light 'Mechs, keeping a TAG beam on it long enough to actually fire LRMs is impossible. Remember, you have to:

1) Get TAG on the target.
2) Get lock-on.
3) Fire.
4) Keep TAG on the target the entire way in- at 450 meters, that's at least 3 seconds.
5) If you lose TAG even for a fraction of a second, revert to 1) and any missiles in the air will lose tracking and miss completely.

Considering how much trouble it is to even keep a normal laser on target for the full duration of far less time when targeting a light, do you seriously think TAG is a reasonable "anti-ECM" system?

Have you actually, you know, TRIED it? Cuz Stanadard Legion practice is to have ALL LRM carrier have their own TAG, and any Spotter Mechs doing the same. We never have trouble with it be it 8 man or 4 man groups. Can't claim 100% wins or anything, but it just made us step up our game.

G Land, on 06 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

I can't help but notice that a lot of these 'play as a team' responses or threads mostly appear to be a coordinated team of 4 people using ECMs playing against PuGs.

4-man gorups dropping in PuG games were already strong and are now even stronger. Don't talk about how much you love ECM if you are using it to stomp as part of a 4 man drop. If you want to team up and tactically make the most of ECM take it to the 8v8s where you at least know the other side will have equal potential to be on voice with a proper set up of ECM and TAG to use their LRMS.

Saying your 4 man group uses LRMs fine against PuGs means nothing at all.

Actually your answer means nothing at all, since most of the groups we faced off with appeared to be 4 man drops, and even some double drops. Unless PUG nation has suddenly started coordinating ECM/Missile boats.

But by all means, keep whining and making excuses instead of adapting and learning. I don't mind applying Darwinian theory to combat and weeding out the stupid.

XenomorphZZ, on 06 December 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

I didn't use streaks before the patch... but I kinda find it... interesting how people are parading the death of the streakcat at the hands of ECM...

When ECM requires the exact same skill set as the streakcat did?

The difference being ECM doesn't get you easy mode kills, it simply prevents the other side from doing so. And Streak Cats can still function, but only if they have and ECM mech playing Disruptor for them. ECM actually makes people have to plan more, and think. It's just that most people would rather complain and have the game reset to "easy mode" than have to actually come up with fresh ideas and tactics.

Skyfaller, on 06 December 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

It is actually quite true. LRM is a LONG RANGE missile. ECM cuts down the lock range to a mere 200m or so and has this effect for all mechs hugging the bubble.

That means, effectively, LRMs= ruined.

You can fire them blindly but they wont hit. They're too slow. They dont 'pack up' before impact unless they have a target lock.

The LRM right now is no longer a long range support weapon but a short range WITH minimum range limit shotgun that can only be used IF you have a TAG (read: The canon missile boat, CatA1 cannot use them).

With the target lock reduced to 200m there is no reason to use LRMs. At all.

SSRM's were knocked out as well and perhaps rightfully so until they get them to not home on CT only.



I find it amazing that you claim it is ok to have one lightweight module nullify not just one but three complete weapon systems and modules.... because 'teamwork' makes up for it.

How about if I introduced an Energy Shield. A bubble device that makes lasers... bend away from the mech inside. How about I say that there was a ballistic weapon that fired shield-disrupting bullets but they only disrupt the shield if the person firing it manages to keep a constant barrage hitting the mech inside it.

It'd be the death of lasers since very few boats load both ballistic and energy slots. Very few pilots can keep a machine gun stream aimed at the target and hitting it in a circle fight... since the shield goes full back up if a single bullet misses (TAG missing target for a second = TAG lost = missile lock lost=Missiles miss & are wasted).

Then I add a new module... hardened uber armor. Immune to projectiles unless an energy beam 'heats up' the armor.


All in all, yes, ECM is good for the game because it promotes teamplay. No, it is bad for LRM because it kills off any long range support fire with missiles, it disables the Artemis system completely and nullifies BAP and target info gathering modules...all at the same time.

There should be a different way of implementing ECM so it is not a 1-flip switch super-benefit tool.

Except that TAG, either yours or a teammates, works just fine cutting thru ECM. So now, if you have a scout with ECM, he can counter theirs. He can lase from 450 meters, and soon 750m. And Even if your scout gets taken out, if you mount TAG, you are effective from the same ranges. So no, LRMS don't = Ruined. But hey, go ahead believing that. It'll just make it that much easier for me to mop the floor with you.

And if you are crying because that one little item made Streak Cats a lot less effective, tough.

Neklatan, on 06 December 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

All I think is that when one introduces a particularly useful feature that, at a significant extent, can be only countered by itself, it sort of becomes mandatory. That actually excludes strategy options. Also, circunstancial statistics, such as teamwork, shouldn't be considered on a balancing point of view. Or should be considered, but with care, as it work both ways.

Haven't played much after the patch, and no matches at all with any LRM, but ECM seems unbalanced from the "it's just a module" point of view. My knowledge of table top and canon is superficial, but it doesn't seem to be all that powerfull there. And it certainly wasn't on other MW games, and that I can say for sure.

I know it's part of information warfare, and that concept is quite interesting, but it seems too one sided as of now. Sure, beta and etc etc, but I hope that other options are introduced, so that ECM won't be absolutely necessary for success as it seems to be now.




Pretty much my point. There should be some sort of balance between BAP, ECM, TAG, NARC and etc. Perhaps a rock-paper-scissors kind of, adding lizard-spock if necessary

but a 1 Ton item already DOES nullify ECM. It's called TAG. There is my scissors to your Paper.

Icebound, on 06 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

I knew it wouldn't be long until people started doing this. PGI needs to make TAG toggle-able otherwise cheaters will find a way.

Cheating. Wow. Yeah, cuz that is so much like an AIMBOT.

Ya know, I think I should learn a lesson and just let people revel in their own ignorance, instead of pointing out how to help themselves.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ceistant, on 06 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

ECM is not a cloaking device... Check out the links below and you will see how both it was implemented in the original game and in the real world.

www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Countermeasure

Just wait till the Clans come, the Clan ECM is 1 Ton and can could be mounted on nearly anything.

Liking your own posts? A little narcissistic, are we?

Fate 6, on 06 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

In order to use TAG, your mech has to have energy hardpoints.

My A1 doesn't have energy hardpoints.

Guess that means you need a teammate then.. funny.. a team based tactical game making it where team work is needed.....

Guess your getting premades out of your PUGnation dropzones didn't make this the eazy mode game you envisioned?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 December 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SpiralRazor, on 06 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

You just fail to comprehend...If you seriously think there is nothing broken about ECM you aren't capable of rational thought.

Actually, any failure of comprehension is purely your own. I comprehend, I adapt, I conquer. Apparently, you lose, whine, cry, then lose some more. I prefer my way.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

And yet you can't lock onto said heat signature and FIRE ZE MISSILES. Hence why I call it a pseudo cloak.



I know what ECM is. I don't need a lesson from you, I've played this stuff for over 10 years.

There is no precedent for an ECM making a mech outside its influence unable to lock onto a heat signature and fire direct LRMs.

Period.

except that LRMs are NOT heat seeking missiles? (Though I do believe they re-introduce a version AFTER Operation Bulldog). Hence, if the missiles are not heat seekers (probably a good thing, considering how much heat EVERYBODY is putting off, you would probably have friendly fire hits more than enemy.
http://www.sarna.net...Seeking_Warhead
Does it make sense? No but neither do big stompy easy to see and shoot Fusion Powered Doom Robots.

So, their ya go, logic 101.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Effectively Useless other than shooting at landscape features.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mack1, on 06 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

That's nice for you and your premade gang, what about lone wolf players in PUG's? Oh right, they are still screwed, looks like your post was busted.

Looks like you should have read further. Looks like your reading comprehension was busted. Purely PUG "groups" are nto going to be able to coordinate ECM use on EITHER side, so if you go into PUG matches packing non direct fire weapons anyhow, you sir, are asking to get stomped. Just a fact. I PUG a LOT. And when I do, I don't carry ANYTHING like LRMs that require teamwork. And if you were a StreakCat driver... tough crap. Most cheesy, skill lacking build they ever let slip thru the cracks.

Also, if so many of you are convinced that PGI just f*cks up everything they touch, why the heck are you even still here trolling the forums, go play CoD, WoT or Hawken.

[Bishop Steiner]

Naeron66, on 06 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

And that is the issue with ECM. In an organised group against other organised groups its ok. They could do pretty much anything with ECM and in group v group it would be ok. Your quoted damage is irrelevant as in an organised group LRMs were much more effective than solo LRM players before ECM arrived. I have never managed to get that amount of damage while solo pugging, but I have when in a premade.

Solo players do not have the luxury of that level of organisation, they can't even guarantee that they will have any ECM on their side. ECM can easily cripple LRM and SRM use when solo pugging.

Again, the lack of ability to actually finish reading posts.

Guess what? This is a TEAM game. Yes, Pugging is not very team conducive. Running LRM boats in Pug matches was STUPID before ECM. There is a reason most of the "Stock" Designs everyone disdains so much had variable range weaponry. Self sufficiency. You can't always count on your Team. Heck, even in Teams, if you think you are dropping with me with a LRM only mech, you sir, are RONG. Because if I get killed and your mech is all that is left, and a half crippled Jenner kills you because you brought no point defense weapons, you just cost your Team a win.

When PUGing? You can ONLY depend on yourself. That is why the most successful PUGs I know run either ALL LOS weapons, or a good mix of both. Adapt or die, Solo OR Team. Just don't cry for them to nerf things that are easily overcome by team work in a TEAM game.

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Effectively Useless other than shooting at landscape features.

I look forward to seeing your unit on the field then. Inflexible mindset Premades die just as fast as an Uncoordinated PUG group does.