142 replies to this topic

[Adrian Steel]

Sen, on 06 December 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

C'mon, I'm LOVING all the "ECM is O/P" threads guys!

It is, ultimately, the sweet intoxicating wine brewed from the crystal tears of every streak cat and LRM boat pilot. . . fermented to PERFECTION!

A common misconception. I'm a brawler/striker pilot. I've resorted to using a D-DC with ECM full time to stay on top of the food chain. I completely violate full lances with it. The problem is that ECM has no significant downsides, and its only real counter is more ECM. This means it's an arms race for ECM, which implies it's unbalanced.

[Walrus Jockey]

You can fire your LRMs at a point target using your reticle... You put the little cross hairs over the mech and pull the trigger.. The LRMs travel to the spot that you manually targeted. All you have to do is get out on the field and move with your Lance. Fire at slow moving mechs at first and then pull back if needed.. Or mount your own TAG system.. Stand off 400m and pick your target.

This will also put you in a better position to be supported by your lance if you get a lighter mech on you.. You won't be all the way in the back hoping that someone comes back to help you.. Instead you will be moving with your lance supporting their advance.

Having an ECM in your area protects you from opposing long range fire, so it's not useless to have, but at the sametime only marginally useful.

Just because LRMs have a 1000m range and can achieve lock without LOS, doesn't mean that's the only way to use them. It's a cop-out for a pilot of an LRM boat to relegate themselves to being useless because they don't understand the the use of their chosen Mech/Weapon system past the very basic of function.

Skill > ECM.

[G Land]

I can't help but notice that a lot of these 'play as a team' responses or threads mostly appear to be a coordinated team of 4 people using ECMs playing against PuGs.

4-man gorups dropping in PuG games were already strong and are now even stronger. Don't talk about how much you love ECM if you are using it to stomp as part of a 4 man drop. If you want to team up and tactically make the most of ECM take it to the 8v8s where you at least know the other side will have equal potential to be on voice with a proper set up of ECM and TAG to use their LRMS.

Saying your 4 man group uses LRMs fine against PuGs means nothing at all.

[Walrus Jockey]

Adrian Steel, on 06 December 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

A common misconception. I'm a brawler/striker pilot. I've resorted to using a D-DC with ECM full time to stay on top of the food chain. I completely violate full lances with it. The problem is that ECM has no significant downsides, and its only real counter is more ECM. This means it's an arms race for ECM, which implies it's unbalanced.

Skill + Tamwork will counter ECM every time. I think everyone is just too used to the "passive" C3 like system that was implemented, and not that it can be counter they don't how to respond.

[Xigunder Blue]

Shrug...ECM nerfs missiles, fragili(zing) nerfs Gauss. The steady vision of this game has been toward large mechs FPS brawling with direct fire weapons. This allows smaller maps, limited tactics, trivializing lights, mediums and missiles to tertiary roles. Devs want feedback so here is mine. The game is trending steadily toward console FPS play. Already seen losses from my unit by members simply shrugging it off, saying simply it just wasn't much fun anymore. Not RAGE quits, just simply gone to games like Planetside2, Hawken, Firefall (betas for last two) and so forth. Strategic play has been drastically reduced.

What to do about it? Nothing. The decision has already been made and is being implemented. I am just a nobody giving a warning that the FPS brawler for consolers will not sustain itself. For me, I am simply gritting my teeth and staying for the moment in hopes the game will change enough in testing by CW. A longtime Battlemech fan whose attraction to MWO is getting strained. BTW I have already invested over $100 in PGIs cash shop for MC to get mechs I would like to try out. Not a forum PVPer or rage quitter. It is just that playing console games on my PC was not what I hoped for MWO.

[PurpleNinja]

You can always use then to distract enemies under 180 meters.
Ammo is free anyway.

[wanderer]

Apoc1138, on 06 December 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

ECCM is of no use to an LRM boat - need to be within 180m to use ECCM... need to be more than 180m to use LRM's... so in the act of neutralising the ECM that is stopping you from firing... you are too close to use your LRM's

TAG is the counter to ECM that LRM boats need

Except, you know that if it's on one of those light 'Mechs, keeping a TAG beam on it long enough to actually fire LRMs is impossible. Remember, you have to:

1) Get TAG on the target.
2) Get lock-on.
3) Fire.
4) Keep TAG on the target the entire way in- at 450 meters, that's at least 3 seconds.
5) If you lose TAG even for a fraction of a second, revert to 1) and any missiles in the air will lose tracking and miss completely.

Considering how much trouble it is to even keep a normal laser on target for the full duration of far less time when targeting a light, do you seriously think TAG is a reasonable "anti-ECM" system?

[Imagine Dragons]

I didn't use streaks before the patch... but I kinda find it... interesting how people are parading the death of the streakcat at the hands of ECM...

When ECM requires the exact same skill set as the streakcat did?

[Skyfaller]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Man. Since the patch the whining about ECM ruining LRMs has been epic. And patently untrue.

What it HAS done, is forced people to change their approach to using them, tactics and on their mechs, hardware configs.

It is actually quite true. LRM is a LONG RANGE missile. ECM cuts down the lock range to a mere 200m or so and has this effect for all mechs hugging the bubble.

That means, effectively, LRMs= ruined.

You can fire them blindly but they wont hit. They're too slow. They dont 'pack up' before impact unless they have a target lock.

The LRM right now is no longer a long range support weapon but a short range WITH minimum range limit shotgun that can only be used IF you have a TAG (read: The canon missile boat, CatA1 cannot use them).

With the target lock reduced to 200m there is no reason to use LRMs. At all.

SSRM's were knocked out as well and perhaps rightfully so until they get them to not home on CT only.

Quote

TL;DR.... The point is nothing is OP or Broken with ECM. People just haven't taken the time to find the work arounds. Lack of tactics and adaptability, and laziness make new tech OP, not the tech itself.

***EDIT, also, if they "turtle" under multi-ECM umbrella, it means they lose their ability to maneuver very effectively. And LRMs can be dumb fired at a SPOT. Turtled mechs means little ability to shift and doge, and therefore are succeptible to siege barrages.

I find it amazing that you claim it is ok to have one lightweight module nullify not just one but three complete weapon systems and modules.... because 'teamwork' makes up for it.

How about if I introduced an Energy Shield. A bubble device that makes lasers... bend away from the mech inside. How about I say that there was a ballistic weapon that fired shield-disrupting bullets but they only disrupt the shield if the person firing it manages to keep a constant barrage hitting the mech inside it.

It'd be the death of lasers since very few boats load both ballistic and energy slots. Very few pilots can keep a machine gun stream aimed at the target and hitting it in a circle fight... since the shield goes full back up if a single bullet misses (TAG missing target for a second = TAG lost = missile lock lost=Missiles miss & are wasted).

Then I add a new module... hardened uber armor. Immune to projectiles unless an energy beam 'heats up' the armor.


All in all, yes, ECM is good for the game because it promotes teamplay. No, it is bad for LRM because it kills off any long range support fire with missiles, it disables the Artemis system completely and nullifies BAP and target info gathering modules...all at the same time.

There should be a different way of implementing ECM so it is not a 1-flip switch super-benefit tool.

[Fugu]

LRMs are at such a damn sweet balance I never thought would be possible!

Guess what LRM-guy sitting on the other end of the map lobbing your rockets, you need a spotter now! Fantastic!
I am currently spotting and TAGing with my Raven and I'm having a blast. It's fun because it's actually challenging.

To loners that might suck but I really couldn't care any less. A team oriented game should be balanced under the circumstances of teamplay instead of being based on random guys PUGing.
The only builds that have been effected by ECM really bad are the boaters who went ALL ROCKETS ALL THE TIME and I think being punished for having a 'Mech that is a one trick pony is totally fine.

[Neklatan]

All I think is that when one introduces a particularly useful feature that, at a significant extent, can be only countered by itself, it sort of becomes mandatory. That actually excludes strategy options. Also, circunstancial statistics, such as teamwork, shouldn't be considered on a balancing point of view. Or should be considered, but with care, as it work both ways.

Haven't played much after the patch, and no matches at all with any LRM, but ECM seems unbalanced from the "it's just a module" point of view. My knowledge of table top and canon is superficial, but it doesn't seem to be all that powerfull there. And it certainly wasn't on other MW games, and that I can say for sure.

I know it's part of information warfare, and that concept is quite interesting, but it seems too one sided as of now. Sure, beta and etc etc, but I hope that other options are introduced, so that ECM won't be absolutely necessary for success as it seems to be now.

Skyfaller, on 06 December 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

I find it amazing that you claim it is ok to have one lightweight module nullify not just one but three complete weapon systems and modules.... because 'teamwork' makes up for it.

How about if I introduced an Energy Shield. A bubble device that makes lasers... bend away from the mech inside. How about I say that there was a ballistic weapon that fired shield-disrupting bullets but they only disrupt the shield if the person firing it manages to keep a constant barrage hitting the mech inside it.

It'd be the death of lasers since very few boats load both ballistic and energy slots. Very few pilots can keep a machine gun stream aimed at the target and hitting it in a circle fight... since the shield goes full back up if a single bullet misses (TAG missing target for a second = TAG lost = missile lock lost=Missiles miss & are wasted).

Then I add a new module... hardened uber armor. Immune to projectiles unless an energy beam 'heats up' the armor.


All in all, yes, ECM is good for the game because it promotes teamplay. No, it is bad for LRM because it kills off any long range support fire with missiles, it disables the Artemis system completely and nullifies BAP and target info gathering modules...all at the same time.

There should be a different way of implementing ECM so it is not a 1-flip switch super-benefit tool.

Pretty much my point. There should be some sort of balance between BAP, ECM, TAG, NARC and etc. Perhaps a rock-paper-scissors kind of, adding lizard-spock if necessary

Edited by Neklatan, 06 December 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[Ronin13m]

I will mention this in here. I think the battle grid should be used for inderect fire Chose your spot to shoot and then all missles home on that spot until you chose another or target an enemy.

LRM's should be able to lock any target you have a visual sight on or.... There flight should be changed to fire straight from the tubes and not the wobbaly flight they do now. So that you could use them like a long range balisstics wepon.

Edited by Ronin13m, 06 December 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[Walrus Jockey]

G Land, on 06 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

I can't help but notice that a lot of these 'play as a team' responses or threads mostly appear to be a coordinated team of 4 people using ECMs playing against PuGs.

4-man gorups dropping in PuG games were already strong and are now even stronger. Don't talk about how much you love ECM if you are using it to stomp as part of a 4 man drop. If you want to team up and tactically make the most of ECM take it to the 8v8s where you at least know the other side will have equal potential to be on voice with a proper set up of ECM and TAG to use their LRMS.

Saying your 4 man group uses LRMs fine against PuGs means nothing at all.

First, I agree with everything you said..

My only comments are that MWO is a Realtime Tactical Simulator with a first person PoV. Since the 80' it's been a team game. PuGs are at a disadvantage, that is true, but I see a lot of people rushing into the game with the mentality that this is another FPS, and they don't attempt to work with a team, or even try and get involved.

I hope that things like ECM will force them to starting working together.

[RumRunner151]

And yet no one believed me:
http://mwomercs.com/...-lrms-are-dead/

Edited by RumRunner151, 06 December 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Tilon]

The problem is that ECM is currently breaking its own rules.

ECM works by broadcasting noise, interrupting electronic communication.

You cannot simultaneously be an a ECM and cloak your position. The two are opposites.

Currently, ECM is stopping communications, somehow HIDING ITS OWN NOISE (a mech with ecm should be EASIER to pick out and target since it is BROADCASTING NOISE) and hiding its own heat signature as well as his friends!

ECM acting as an ECM and a cloak simultaneously laughs in the face of reality and is a joke. There is no reason you should have to use tag from 600 meters because:

A. You are out of its jamming range
B. It is broadcasting noise and giving its position away
C. It still has a heat signature(unless you people actually think ECM hides HEAT)

I know people like it because they hate streaks. Fix streaks, they are op.

We dont need a cloaking device/ECM combo in the game, operating on magic principles.

How is ECM disabling the targeting equipment of mecha outside its range? How is it hiding its own heat SIG? How is it hiding its own NOISE BROADCAST?

An ECM that can hide its own noise broadcast is an impressive trick indeed. If you think it's not out of whack as currently implemented, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I would like to sell you.

Oh, and its broken from a game design standpoint too, because for 1.5 tons, you get an ecm/pseudo cloak combo that renders an entire class of weapons useless.

You'd think they would know how to target a heat sig in the 31st century. What exactly is ecm cloaking, since the mech 800 meters out is not within the jamming bubble?

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[Kernfeuer]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

The problem is that ECM is currently breaking its own rules.

ECM works by broadcasting noise, interrupting electronic communication.

You cannot simultaneously be an a ECM and cloak your position. The two are opposites.

Currently, ECM is stopping communications, somehow HIDING ITS OWN NOISE (a mech with ecm should be EASIER to pick out and target since it is BROADCASTING NOISE) and hiding its own heat signature as well as his friends!

ECM acting as an ECM and a cloak simultaneously laughs in the face of reality and is a joke. There is no reason you should have to use tag from 600 meters because:

A. You are out of its jamming range
B. It is broadcasting noise and giving its position away
C. It still has a heat signature(unless you people actually think ECM hides HEAT)

I know people like it because they hate streaks. Fix streaks, they are op.

We dont need a cloaking device/ECM combo in the game, operating on magic principles.

How is ECM disabling the targeting equipment of mecha outside its range? How is it hiding its own heat SIG? How is it hiding its own NOISE BROADCAST?

An ECM that can hide its own noise broadcast is an impressive trick indeed. If you think it's not out of whack as currently implemented, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I would like to sell you.

Oh, and its broken from a game design standpoint too, because for 1.5 tons, you get an ecm/pseudo cloak combo that renders an entire class of weapons useless.

You'd think they would know how to target a heat sig in the 31st century. What exactly is ecm cloaking, since the mech 800 meters out is not within the jamming bubble?

Well spoken and absolutley correct ive had to login to like that

[Icebound]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

he could use his own TAG, macro'd to always on, to lase targets and direct fire his LRMs.

I knew it wouldn't be long until people started doing this. PGI needs to make TAG toggle-able otherwise cheaters will find a way.

[Snuglninja]

I have heard pugs are the life blood or this game a million times. We need them. So what does pgi do? They make it even harder for them to survive. They drop a few blips pop up they sling a few missiles then a group of 4 pop up behind them using their magical cloaking device never before seen in the battle tech universe start hitting them with focus fire yelling the whole time team work. B.S. team work now in 8 vs 8 is 2 teams of ECM bots walking up to each other and brawling. No matter what map that is the strategy. No fan of lrms hated streakcats but this is not battle tech.

[Ronin13m]

Lets run thru this senario. Got the 2D commando and was running ECM the other night rolled up on a streakcat. Started to turn away remembered that I was running ECM and instead closed with him. He had no ECM on his side and once I had him in 180m I could take my time taking him apart with my commando. He tried to run but his mech was not fast enough.

Now he got no support even though the rest of his team was less then a gird away. I just became his shadow and he could do nothing. He could not target me and he could not get away.

This is where I do not believe this is a level playing field. The ECM Mech can use streaks and LRM's those with out can not. If you have teamwork going for you all the better. I know I blocked ECM for a friendly streakcat so that he could take my counterpart on the other team down.

I do not believe in any game a player should not be able to react or have a chance at fighting back. Granted I enjoyed taking the steakcat apart since he would have one shot me the day before. But that he could do nothing that does not seem correct.

Since the flight time of LRM's if you see them launched there is no reason not to move even if you do not know if they are headed your way. So dumb fireing them might work once but wont work once the target knows that you might do it. And any mech standing still is just a target waiting to get killed.

[RumRunner151]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Currently, ECM is ... hiding its own heat signature as well as his friends!

tag from 600 meters

I dont know what game you are playing but in mine I see ECM bubbled mechs with heat vision just fine and TAG does not work past 450m.

Icebound, on 06 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

I knew it wouldn't be long until people started doing this. PGI needs to make TAG toggle-able otherwise cheaters will find a way.

How is that cheating? Its dumb because it would make it hard to sneak around...but cheating? What if they bind TAG to group 3 and put a fishing weight on the 3 key...is that cheating?

Edited by RumRunner151, 06 December 2012 - 11:15 AM.