You counter with another ECM on counter mode.
You can also off set some of the penalties with modules and the beagle. You could have a teammate NARC him and TAG is also useful.
Play tabletop man, you'll see that LRM's are only support weapons, not primaries that are supposed to win battles themselves.
4
Ecm Makes Lrms Useless Is A Big Fat Myth
Started by Bishop Steiner, Dec 06 2012 05:53 AM
142 replies to this topic
#122
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:33 PM
Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:
That is not how Guardian ECM works. Stop posting United States technology in a discussion about Battletech.
Once again, from Sarna:
That disproves your bubble theory. If your bubble theory were true, its range would not be its biggest drawback.
Post something from Battletech that proves your 'bubble' theory of ECM. The simple fact is that ECM jams enemy sensors within its range, it does not act as a bubble stopping anything from entering it from outside.
The enemy mech has to be WITHIN your bubble to jam its targeting sensors. If it is OUTSIDE your range, then your infrared signature is still there (Your mech generates heat) and the mech's computer can lock on to you.
As the fellow above said, there are missiles that specifically home in on ECM systems, because ECM systems give their position away by being NOISY.
So all you have to do to prove your point is post something, anything from Battletech that shows ECM being effective against direct fire LRMs at long range.
You won't find a shred of evidence supporting that claim.
If anything, an LRM mech outside of your range should lock onto an ECM-spewing mech FASTER, since you are a noise maker!
Since that range limits what can be COVERED by the ECM, actually it is. The down side being you can't hide a regiment, or the like with it. It also means any units being protected need to stick close, or LOSE said protection. Nice way to try to selectively read the description. An ecm that only spoofed things right next to it would be next to useless.
"Gosh Boss, it's a damn shame we can't detect that tank 30 feet from us cause it has ECM......"
And since attempting to use (and generally butchering) "real world ECM" info is something your crowd has been attempting, guess it sucks when it is ACCURATELY turned against you?
#123
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:34 PM
Plus there is also equiping lasers, SRMs and autocannons to just blow the hell out of them. These weapons must be in the game for some reason... I wonder why? Oh it's because LRM's are not the only weapon in the game!
#124
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:35 PM
and on that note, i could continue to try to talk sense into those who only want to argue, or go blow people up, whether they have or don't have ecm. since apparently i am one of only 10 people left who can enjoy the game and still win at it. *rolls eyes*
...naughty ecm, bad bad ecm! you make this game unplayable and need a spanking!
...naughty ecm, bad bad ecm! you make this game unplayable and need a spanking!
Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 December 2012 - 04:38 PM.
#125
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:39 PM
Kraven Kor, on 06 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:
Yet it allowed a team to completely destroy us last night despite having three ECM mechs... and we may not be the bestest team ever, but we don't suck...
Puging and pre-mades are vastly different. And you must stand still for tag to really be effective.
Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:
and on that note, i could continue to try to talk sense into those who only want to argue, or go blow people up, whether they have or don't have ecm. since apparently i am one of only 10 people left who can enjoy the game and still win at it. *rolls eyes*
...naughty ecm, bad bad ecm! you make this game unplayable and need a spanking!
...naughty ecm, bad bad ecm! you make this game unplayable and need a spanking!
Yeah your completely clueless.
#126
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:40 PM
Nightcrept, on 06 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:
Puging and pre-mades are vastly different. And you must stand still for tag to really be effective.
actually you apparently just need to practice more at TAG-ing, since my guys use it all the time, quite well, on the move and against moving mechs.
Since I have done some 30 matches in groups, and another 25-30 PUG-ing, I have been able to function in both equally well. I win some, I lose some, and my W/L ratio stays pretty static.
(and now I go blow things up)
#127
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:41 PM
FallenFactol, on 06 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:
You counter with another ECM on counter mode.
Play tabletop man, you'll see that LRM's are only support weapons, not primaries that are supposed to win battles themselves.
Play tabletop man, you'll see that LRM's are only support weapons, not primaries that are supposed to win battles themselves.
Play tabletop man, ECMs don't effect direct fire LRMs at all.
If missiles need balancing, balance missiles. Adding ECM as a game dominating piece of equipment is not the way to go.
Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:
Since that range limits what can be COVERED by the ECM, actually it is.
Post a single piece of evidence from Battletech canon that shows ECM being used to defend against direct fire LRM attacks. Just one piece of evidence. I know there isn't any, because ECM doesn't work that way in Btech.
FallenFactol, on 06 December 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:
Plus there is also equiping lasers, SRMs and autocannons to just blow the hell out of them. These weapons must be in the game for some reason... I wonder why? Oh it's because LRM's are not the only weapon in the game!
I don't play LRM boats. I just recognize this current implementation of a 1.5 ton system as a jammer/cloak combo is horribly imbalanced.
I noticed none of you responders have made any mention of the Null Signature System, because it deflates all your points.
Why did they go to so much trouble to invent technologies to mask a mech's heat signature, complete with huge heat drawbacks, when an ECM supposedly does the same thing and more?
Mr. Steiner, if ECM blocks infrared sensors outside its range, why have a Null Signature System?
That's the 10 million C-Bill question. We're waiting for your answer.
The answer is that ECM is short range only, since it is jamming enemy mechs within its limited range. Null Signature, since it masks a friendly signal, works at any range.
Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 04:44 PM.
#128
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:41 PM
Redshift2k5, on 06 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:
It certainly does require a paradigm shift and precise teamwork.
Improvements to TAG usage(already planned!) would certainly help.
Improvements to TAG usage(already planned!) would certainly help.
Nooooo!
TAG does not need to be changed.
But NARC needs to be non-LoS targetting for 60s.
#129
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:45 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:
actually you apparently just need to practice more at TAG-ing, since my guys use it all the time, quite well, on the move and against moving mechs.
Since I have done some 30 matches in groups, and another 25-30 PUG-ing, I have been able to function in both equally well. I win some, I lose some, and my W/L ratio stays pretty static.
(and now I go blow things up)
Since I have done some 30 matches in groups, and another 25-30 PUG-ing, I have been able to function in both equally well. I win some, I lose some, and my W/L ratio stays pretty static.
(and now I go blow things up)
I don't use tag. I am referring to the players who attempt to use it against me. It is useless. I have never had anyone reliably use tag against my d-dc brawler with ecm.
I just don't believe you.
Taging for yourself is nonsense and depending on someone else to do it isn't reliable in pug play.
And your attempted out of context use of real world ecm tech is laughable.
Zyllos, on 06 December 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:
Nooooo!
TAG does not need to be changed.
But NARC needs to be non-LoS targetting for 60s.
Your still talking about giving up a weapons slot and thus damage to counter a 1.5 ton pieces of equipment that requires in a few cases no loss of weaponry.
#130
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:56 PM
I don't think the weight of this module is being discussed enough.
Seriously, 1.5 tons? That's less than an AMS weighs!
Why would any mech equip an AMS when ECM would work better?!
Look, there is a reason this is out of whack, and it's because ECM is not supposed to cloak mechs against long range detection and targeting!
Otherwise, why develop a costly Null Signature System? Why develop AMS?!
Seriously, 1.5 tons? That's less than an AMS weighs!
Why would any mech equip an AMS when ECM would work better?!
Look, there is a reason this is out of whack, and it's because ECM is not supposed to cloak mechs against long range detection and targeting!
Otherwise, why develop a costly Null Signature System? Why develop AMS?!
#131
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:01 PM
I can't believe all the talk about ECM. The devs must be tearing their hair out in patches. Garth will soon be a bald monk sent to St Marinus to live in peace and solitude for the sake of his sanity.
It looks like you either get it, or you don't. It's an incredible system that adds huge depth to the gameplay, without being essential or over powered. It's elegant in it simplicity and follows very strict rules that are blindingly obvious to what seems to be 50% of the population.
What I can't understand is the difficulty some people have with it. I run in PUG's 100% of the time. I have to deal with a Ping of 250+ on a good day, 300+ on a bad. I have no problems at all holding a TAG on a target. Even when I can't hit a light because of lag I shrug it off and get on with the next match. ECM has done nothing but make games more fun for me. I believe it has been implemented perfectly as is. Sure, buff TAG range if you want but it is unnecessary and will unbalance an already equal situation.
Its like spacial relationships, maps, geometry etc. some people can hold complex concepts in their heads. See a system in its entirety and adjust accordingly. Some people are barely capable of putting a round peg in an oval hole though.
ECM is like this. You have to instantly understand that now you have to use you eyes some of the time. You can still shoot things. You can still target damaged components if you're smart. You can assist you team with TAG by spotting the ECM capable mech and focussing it down. Teams have been saying FOR MONTHS that focussing fire is the key to success. Well now you have a target to focus on? This hasn't changed the basic gameplay at all. You still find the enemy, choose a target based on a complicated scoring algorithm (that usually falls back to "Shoot All the Things" despite your best intentions lol). Then you monitor the battle situation. Call targets. Help your fellow pilots. Rain down LRM on targets in the open.
I'm not the target audience for ECM threads I think and the constant focus on them is only making me dread the devs having to respond in a negative fashion. ECM works - it is just another tool no different to any another. The true threat is always the pilot.
As I said though, you either get it or you don't. Luckily enough people seem to understand its role and uses that the "Nerf everything TM" crowd hopefully won't result in drastic changes.
Finally, I just want to remind people to think about others when you post. If you were a new player just coming in to the game now, I doubt you would have an issue with ECM. You never were trained to look for red blips on your map. With ECM now in the game, new players will be learning how to play with it as a staple of the gameplay. It becomes no more annoying or different than any other mechanic currently in existence. Try to remember it is a Beta, where many different systems are not even added yet. These systems will have fundamental changes to your existing experience. HOWEVER they will have zero effect on a new player! Try to think like a tester, and take each change in stride, adapt, test, plan and have fun! I've rambled lol but hell it's a forum on the Internet so read or not, your choice.
It looks like you either get it, or you don't. It's an incredible system that adds huge depth to the gameplay, without being essential or over powered. It's elegant in it simplicity and follows very strict rules that are blindingly obvious to what seems to be 50% of the population.
What I can't understand is the difficulty some people have with it. I run in PUG's 100% of the time. I have to deal with a Ping of 250+ on a good day, 300+ on a bad. I have no problems at all holding a TAG on a target. Even when I can't hit a light because of lag I shrug it off and get on with the next match. ECM has done nothing but make games more fun for me. I believe it has been implemented perfectly as is. Sure, buff TAG range if you want but it is unnecessary and will unbalance an already equal situation.
Its like spacial relationships, maps, geometry etc. some people can hold complex concepts in their heads. See a system in its entirety and adjust accordingly. Some people are barely capable of putting a round peg in an oval hole though.
ECM is like this. You have to instantly understand that now you have to use you eyes some of the time. You can still shoot things. You can still target damaged components if you're smart. You can assist you team with TAG by spotting the ECM capable mech and focussing it down. Teams have been saying FOR MONTHS that focussing fire is the key to success. Well now you have a target to focus on? This hasn't changed the basic gameplay at all. You still find the enemy, choose a target based on a complicated scoring algorithm (that usually falls back to "Shoot All the Things" despite your best intentions lol). Then you monitor the battle situation. Call targets. Help your fellow pilots. Rain down LRM on targets in the open.
I'm not the target audience for ECM threads I think and the constant focus on them is only making me dread the devs having to respond in a negative fashion. ECM works - it is just another tool no different to any another. The true threat is always the pilot.
As I said though, you either get it or you don't. Luckily enough people seem to understand its role and uses that the "Nerf everything TM" crowd hopefully won't result in drastic changes.
Finally, I just want to remind people to think about others when you post. If you were a new player just coming in to the game now, I doubt you would have an issue with ECM. You never were trained to look for red blips on your map. With ECM now in the game, new players will be learning how to play with it as a staple of the gameplay. It becomes no more annoying or different than any other mechanic currently in existence. Try to remember it is a Beta, where many different systems are not even added yet. These systems will have fundamental changes to your existing experience. HOWEVER they will have zero effect on a new player! Try to think like a tester, and take each change in stride, adapt, test, plan and have fun! I've rambled lol but hell it's a forum on the Internet so read or not, your choice.
#132
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:08 PM
Ok, several points, first on ECM in general
There are two types of ECM in the real world,
Broadcast Jammers - These are what you are thinking off and block communications within an area, they can also jam some targetting systems but most modern targeting systems can ignore this.
Disruptive Jammers - These work by creating false images or creating feedback into attacking sensors, particularly those of missiles. A good example of this are AWAC planes, these are capable of creating false radar signals of friendly craft up to about 20-30 mile radius from itself, protecting those planes from enemy lock-ons because the enemy computer isn't sure which signal is the correct one.
Now think about it.
The hunchback in within 180m of an ECM boat and you are trying to lock onto him. Meanwhile the ECM unit is broadcasting numerous fake IR images of the close-by mechs onto walls creating false targets, using EM fields to generate false mag-scan images and bouncing polarised light and IR signals off mechs to confuse optical/IR light targeting systems.
Your sensors are in no way jammed, you can target any mech outside the ECM's projection range fine, you just can't achieve a solid lock on the mech you are trying to lock onto.
All in all it becomes very hard to target a vehicle protected by ECM,
We have equipment that does most of this currently, this is not fantasy technology, ECM in the game is only different from the real world in terms of it's weight/size really.
On that note, my ONLY objection to ECM as it stands is it's weight, its a big enough advantage that there isn't too much point currently running any scout that isn't an ECM raven or Cicada. This obsoletes a lot of mechs because the ECM is simply too good to weigh so little,
IMHO ECM should use 1 weapon slot (any type, it just needs the mount) and weight 3-4 tons and 3 slots.
That would make ECM more of a choice that a requirement for scouts, so that if you are running ECM, you are losing something as significant in return. Another solution would be to split the Jammers into two parts, each with the same weight as the current ones with the capacities of Broadcast or Deceptive Jammers as described above.
If improvements to counter ECM are put in then the current weight is fine.
There are two types of ECM in the real world,
Broadcast Jammers - These are what you are thinking off and block communications within an area, they can also jam some targetting systems but most modern targeting systems can ignore this.
Disruptive Jammers - These work by creating false images or creating feedback into attacking sensors, particularly those of missiles. A good example of this are AWAC planes, these are capable of creating false radar signals of friendly craft up to about 20-30 mile radius from itself, protecting those planes from enemy lock-ons because the enemy computer isn't sure which signal is the correct one.
Now think about it.
The hunchback in within 180m of an ECM boat and you are trying to lock onto him. Meanwhile the ECM unit is broadcasting numerous fake IR images of the close-by mechs onto walls creating false targets, using EM fields to generate false mag-scan images and bouncing polarised light and IR signals off mechs to confuse optical/IR light targeting systems.
Your sensors are in no way jammed, you can target any mech outside the ECM's projection range fine, you just can't achieve a solid lock on the mech you are trying to lock onto.
All in all it becomes very hard to target a vehicle protected by ECM,
We have equipment that does most of this currently, this is not fantasy technology, ECM in the game is only different from the real world in terms of it's weight/size really.
On that note, my ONLY objection to ECM as it stands is it's weight, its a big enough advantage that there isn't too much point currently running any scout that isn't an ECM raven or Cicada. This obsoletes a lot of mechs because the ECM is simply too good to weigh so little,
IMHO ECM should use 1 weapon slot (any type, it just needs the mount) and weight 3-4 tons and 3 slots.
That would make ECM more of a choice that a requirement for scouts, so that if you are running ECM, you are losing something as significant in return. Another solution would be to split the Jammers into two parts, each with the same weight as the current ones with the capacities of Broadcast or Deceptive Jammers as described above.
If improvements to counter ECM are put in then the current weight is fine.
#133
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:12 PM
Oh and BTW, ECM in MWO doesn't affect direct-fire LRMs either.
You can still point and shoot them (dumb-fire) and true direct fire isn't implemented properly yet, which is a problem with the LRM implementation (as you perceive it) not with ECM at all.
Not sure if they will put in direct-fire LRMs, because honestly, a cat with 4xLRM20 single volley at short range would be staggering......... not to mention if it fits tag as well.
You can still point and shoot them (dumb-fire) and true direct fire isn't implemented properly yet, which is a problem with the LRM implementation (as you perceive it) not with ECM at all.
Not sure if they will put in direct-fire LRMs, because honestly, a cat with 4xLRM20 single volley at short range would be staggering......... not to mention if it fits tag as well.
#134
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:12 PM
ECM should have no effect on any mech that isn't within 180m. It just shouldn't...there's no reason it would.
LRMs should still be able to lock on, but once they enter that 180m they should lose the lock if there are ECMs...that way they are directed...targeted...and yet still hurt by the ECM.
LRMs should still be able to lock on, but once they enter that 180m they should lose the lock if there are ECMs...that way they are directed...targeted...and yet still hurt by the ECM.
#135
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:19 PM
Guardian ECMs do not project false infrared images.
Dude, I have no problem with ECM blocking 'R' targeting. That's kinda cool.
I have a problem with LRMs not even being usable from 800 meters out, even if you see said untargetable mech.
I don't even use LRM boats, but that is broken.
The fix is simple. Allow LRMs to hover their mouse on you and target you even when you aren't showing up on R targeting.
I will be fine with the system if that is done.
As it is, a 1.5 ton system should not completely shut down missiles that are outside of its jamming range.
Yes it does. Your chance to hit an ECM mech is much, much lower. It shouldn't be.
The guardian ECM is a broadcast jammer. The problem here is that in Battletech, there isn't really any equipment that can generate false infrared mech images all over the place with some kind of holo projector. Consequently, there really isn't much of a way to fool infrared sensors from outside the effective range of the ECM suite.T
This is why the Star League went to so much trouble to create the Null Signature System, which masks a mechs' heat signature. If ECM could mask your heat signature from long range, there would be no need for the Null System.
Guardian ECM only overwhelms mechs within its range. It does not fool the sensors of mechs outside its range, in fact, an ECM mech should be easier to target since all the noise is coming from a single point.
Quote
ECM is like this. You have to instantly understand that now you have to use you eyes some of the time. You can still shoot things.
Dude, I have no problem with ECM blocking 'R' targeting. That's kinda cool.
I have a problem with LRMs not even being usable from 800 meters out, even if you see said untargetable mech.
I don't even use LRM boats, but that is broken.
The fix is simple. Allow LRMs to hover their mouse on you and target you even when you aren't showing up on R targeting.
I will be fine with the system if that is done.
As it is, a 1.5 ton system should not completely shut down missiles that are outside of its jamming range.
Quote
Oh and BTW, ECM in MWO doesn't affect direct-fire LRMs either.
Yes it does. Your chance to hit an ECM mech is much, much lower. It shouldn't be.
Quote
There are two types of ECM in the real world.
The guardian ECM is a broadcast jammer. The problem here is that in Battletech, there isn't really any equipment that can generate false infrared mech images all over the place with some kind of holo projector. Consequently, there really isn't much of a way to fool infrared sensors from outside the effective range of the ECM suite.T
This is why the Star League went to so much trouble to create the Null Signature System, which masks a mechs' heat signature. If ECM could mask your heat signature from long range, there would be no need for the Null System.
Guardian ECM only overwhelms mechs within its range. It does not fool the sensors of mechs outside its range, in fact, an ECM mech should be easier to target since all the noise is coming from a single point.
Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 05:25 PM.
#136
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:26 PM
Arcturious, on 06 December 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:
I can't believe all the talk about ECM. The devs must be tearing their hair out in patches. Garth will soon be a bald monk sent to St Marinus to live in peace and solitude for the sake of his sanity.
It looks like you either get it, or you don't. It's an incredible system that adds huge depth to the gameplay, without being essential or over powered. It's elegant in it simplicity and follows very strict rules that are blindingly obvious to what seems to be 50% of the population.
What I can't understand is the difficulty some people have with it. I run in PUG's 100% of the time. I have to deal with a Ping of 250+ on a good day, 300+ on a bad. I have no problems at all holding a TAG on a target. Even when I can't hit a light because of lag I shrug it off and get on with the next match. ECM has done nothing but make games more fun for me. I believe it has been implemented perfectly as is. Sure, buff TAG range if you want but it is unnecessary and will unbalance an already equal situation.
Its like spacial relationships, maps, geometry etc. some people can hold complex concepts in their heads. See a system in its entirety and adjust accordingly. Some people are barely capable of putting a round peg in an oval hole though.
ECM is like this. You have to instantly understand that now you have to use you eyes some of the time. You can still shoot things. You can still target damaged components if you're smart. You can assist you team with TAG by spotting the ECM capable mech and focussing it down. Teams have been saying FOR MONTHS that focussing fire is the key to success. Well now you have a target to focus on? This hasn't changed the basic gameplay at all. You still find the enemy, choose a target based on a complicated scoring algorithm (that usually falls back to "Shoot All the Things" despite your best intentions lol). Then you monitor the battle situation. Call targets. Help your fellow pilots. Rain down LRM on targets in the open.
I'm not the target audience for ECM threads I think and the constant focus on them is only making me dread the devs having to respond in a negative fashion. ECM works - it is just another tool no different to any another. The true threat is always the pilot.
As I said though, you either get it or you don't. Luckily enough people seem to understand its role and uses that the "Nerf everything TM" crowd hopefully won't result in drastic changes.
Finally, I just want to remind people to think about others when you post. If you were a new player just coming in to the game now, I doubt you would have an issue with ECM. You never were trained to look for red blips on your map. With ECM now in the game, new players will be learning how to play with it as a staple of the gameplay. It becomes no more annoying or different than any other mechanic currently in existence. Try to remember it is a Beta, where many different systems are not even added yet. These systems will have fundamental changes to your existing experience. HOWEVER they will have zero effect on a new player! Try to think like a tester, and take each change in stride, adapt, test, plan and have fun! I've rambled lol but hell it's a forum on the Internet so read or not, your choice.
It looks like you either get it, or you don't. It's an incredible system that adds huge depth to the gameplay, without being essential or over powered. It's elegant in it simplicity and follows very strict rules that are blindingly obvious to what seems to be 50% of the population.
What I can't understand is the difficulty some people have with it. I run in PUG's 100% of the time. I have to deal with a Ping of 250+ on a good day, 300+ on a bad. I have no problems at all holding a TAG on a target. Even when I can't hit a light because of lag I shrug it off and get on with the next match. ECM has done nothing but make games more fun for me. I believe it has been implemented perfectly as is. Sure, buff TAG range if you want but it is unnecessary and will unbalance an already equal situation.
Its like spacial relationships, maps, geometry etc. some people can hold complex concepts in their heads. See a system in its entirety and adjust accordingly. Some people are barely capable of putting a round peg in an oval hole though.
ECM is like this. You have to instantly understand that now you have to use you eyes some of the time. You can still shoot things. You can still target damaged components if you're smart. You can assist you team with TAG by spotting the ECM capable mech and focussing it down. Teams have been saying FOR MONTHS that focussing fire is the key to success. Well now you have a target to focus on? This hasn't changed the basic gameplay at all. You still find the enemy, choose a target based on a complicated scoring algorithm (that usually falls back to "Shoot All the Things" despite your best intentions lol). Then you monitor the battle situation. Call targets. Help your fellow pilots. Rain down LRM on targets in the open.
I'm not the target audience for ECM threads I think and the constant focus on them is only making me dread the devs having to respond in a negative fashion. ECM works - it is just another tool no different to any another. The true threat is always the pilot.
As I said though, you either get it or you don't. Luckily enough people seem to understand its role and uses that the "Nerf everything TM" crowd hopefully won't result in drastic changes.
Finally, I just want to remind people to think about others when you post. If you were a new player just coming in to the game now, I doubt you would have an issue with ECM. You never were trained to look for red blips on your map. With ECM now in the game, new players will be learning how to play with it as a staple of the gameplay. It becomes no more annoying or different than any other mechanic currently in existence. Try to remember it is a Beta, where many different systems are not even added yet. These systems will have fundamental changes to your existing experience. HOWEVER they will have zero effect on a new player! Try to think like a tester, and take each change in stride, adapt, test, plan and have fun! I've rambled lol but hell it's a forum on the Internet so read or not, your choice.
So your point on ECM being perfectly balanced is, you can still shoot them? Except you can't using streak or lrm's unless someone runs tag and then an entire paragraph that's essentially calling anyone who disagrees with you akin to toddlers who can not understand basic shapes and have little to no motor control. That is not what I'd call convincing.
ECM is strong, it's really strong. The biggest problem with all these "missiles are still useful" comments is the seeming bubble that folks are in. In essence you are correct I could still run a c1, get tag on it and do okay and work to adapt and deal with the current version of ECM. However I could just load up a quad large laser k2, or a gauss kitty and be direct fire support without the downsides of having to try and adapt to ECM.
It's easier to just throw on some other long range weapon then try and deal with the LRM conundrum that ECM puts people in. Why would I waste the time and effort when I could just forgo the hassle entirely? Aesthetic love of missiles aside of course.
#137
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:31 PM
Parnage, on 06 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:
So your point on ECM being perfectly balanced is, you can still shoot them? Except you can't using streak or lrm's unless someone runs tag and then an entire paragraph that's essentially calling anyone who disagrees with you akin to toddlers who can not understand basic shapes and have little to no motor control. That is not what I'd call convincing.
I think most of the ECM love comes from the dislike people have for Streak missiles.
Look, I agree, streaks need a nerf, because you shouldn't be able to lock on once, and keep firing the streaks. Streaks were never intended to have a greatly increased chance to hit, which is the way they are currently implemented.
So fix streaks. A lot of pro-ECM posts come from an 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend" point of view.
Personally, I prefer direct fire weapons. I still dislike ECM because it's imbalanced and has no drawbacks, forcing the game into an ECM bidding war, which is going to have the side effect of making Streaks and LRMs second class citizens, dealing with so many disadvantages that they will not be viable to use.
Look, why the heck would you want to go through the trouble of relying on a TAG spotter that has to constantly hold the laser for it to work, when you could just load a Gauss Rifle instead?!
ECM should be a jammer. It can't be both a jammer and a cloaker at the same time, that breaks all rules of game design. Jammers are anti-cloaks, they give their own position away.
All the disruption is coming from a single point, the ECM mech. It can not 'spoof' where the disruption is coming from.
Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 05:35 PM.
#138
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:35 PM
FallenFactol, on 06 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:
You counter with another ECM on counter mode.
You can also off set some of the penalties with modules and the beagle. You could have a teammate NARC him and TAG is also useful.
Play tabletop man, you'll see that LRM's are only support weapons, not primaries that are supposed to win battles themselves.
You can also off set some of the penalties with modules and the beagle. You could have a teammate NARC him and TAG is also useful.
Play tabletop man, you'll see that LRM's are only support weapons, not primaries that are supposed to win battles themselves.
In table top, getting hit with LRMS is like getting hit with multiple AC/5s because of the 5 point blocks rule..... Or are AC/5, UAC/5 also support weapons?
Average damage of an LRM 20 is 12 points, 5 5 and 2. 3 hits, with 3 chances to cause crits...
LRMS in a skilled pilots hands can win a games all by themselves bro.
#139
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:44 PM
I should mention since ECM has been added I have been running a stock Cent-D. The only change I made was swapping out one of the Med lasers to a TAG. So yes, all my points still stand regrading LRM. I love them and have found ECM to be no more than a minor inconvenience.
I ran a handful of games in a Comm 1-B for variety when I wanted a change. It was fun running into ECM bubble and panicking the ECM scout into leaving his team mates undefended. Ravens and Comm-2D's can easily get out of 180m range without even noticing if they aren't careful, leaving their team exposed to fire because they were inevitably over confident in their ECM and were just wandering around in the open.
I ran a handful of games in a Comm 1-B for variety when I wanted a change. It was fun running into ECM bubble and panicking the ECM scout into leaving his team mates undefended. Ravens and Comm-2D's can easily get out of 180m range without even noticing if they aren't careful, leaving their team exposed to fire because they were inevitably over confident in their ECM and were just wandering around in the open.
#140
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:47 PM
There's also ECCM, right? Using that would help...
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