140 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

I remember playing EA's MPBT 3025 where weapons were 100% accurate. The result was that med lasers and AC2s were incredibly powerful, and medium class games were usually 4 blackjacks sniping another 4 blackjacks with AC2 fire at 1000 meters (or whatever the max range was). Then at some point one side would try to hide and the other side would walk backwards while firing their AC2s. People who tried to take hunchbacks, centurions, etc were usually very ineffective.

And well...if you look at MW4 multiplayer...it's almost entirely comprised of people taking PPC/Gauss boats and sniping each other at 800+ meters without leaving their spawn.

Seriously hoping MWO won't turn into another snipe fest, where people just take the heaviest mechs they can and hide behind hills with jump jets in "uber" sniper configs while sniping with pinpoint accuracy across the map.

[Motionless]

Well one of the things they already talked about, that you might consider relevant, is how your weapons converge on the reticule. So there is some of what I would call a focusing-time when you go from having your reticule over a target at X distance and one at Y distance.

So if you were standing very close to the side of the hill and then quickly moved your reticule to something beyond the hill there would be a time where your weapon fire would converge before it reached the target under your reticule. So in this way your reticule is not always a fully accurate estimation of where even lasers will land.

I would say a lot of what people might be concerned bout with sniper-fests has more to do with map design than weapon mechanics.

[Orzorn]

They're accurate...but your weapons have to converge.

http://mwomercs.com/...5-mech-warfare/

Quote

Basically, your targeting systems are always trying to adjust the angle of your weapons so that they converge or focus at a distance of whatever your aiming reticles are pointing at. So, if you fire at a target very far away, your lasers (or whatever else) may fire nearly parallel to each other; firing at a target up close will angle the shots inwards. However, the adjustment of these angles is not instant.

For instance, if you were facing a building, while taking cover right up against it, your convergence would adjust to hit just a short distance in front of you (the distance to the building). When you step out from around that building and fire on an enemy in the distance, your convergence point would automatically begin to adjust, but not instantly. If you shoot too soon, your first shots may converge and cross a short distance in front of you and completely miss the enemy as they pass on either side of him. Or perhaps you were aiming for the centre torso and hit his arms instead, as your aim adjusts towards his centre.

I also see that you're new. Go read this thread, please!

Edited by Orzorn, 04 May 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Major Tom]

I'm not seeing the problem.

A Jenner can cross 1000m in 3 seconds.
An AC/2 can delever 2 units of damage in 10 seconds.
*** 2 units of damage = 1.25 tons of armor.

suck up the AC/2 shot and be thankful the Blackjack isn't spending those 14 ton's on PPCs or large lasers.

As for sniper mechs, I suggest using terrain and movement. If someone is good enough to track you behind buildings, hills, and trees and pop your head off at 129kph, then they have some skill, and you may be outclassed.

[EDIT] If anyone can do it, then I'll agree there is a problem [/EDIT]

Edited by Major Tom, 04 May 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Tekkiller]

Major Tom, on 04 May 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'm not seeing the problem.

A Jenner can cross 1000m in 3 seconds.
An AC/2 can delever 2 units of damage in 10 seconds.
*** 2 units of damage = 1.25 tons of armor.

suck up the AC/2 shot and be thankful the Blackjack isn't spending those 14 ton's on PPCs or large lasers.

As for sniper mechs, I suggest using terrain and movement. If someone is good enough to track you behind buildings, hills, and trees and pop your head off at 129kph, then they have some skill, and you may be outclassed.

[EDIT] If anyone can do it, then I'll agree there is a problem [/EDIT]

lolwut?

1000meters in 3 secs = 333 m/s

333m/s = 20,000m / minute

20,000m / minute = 1,200,000 meters/hour

1,200,000 meters/hour = 1,200 kilometers /hour


That is ONE FAST JENNER!!!

[Aelos03]

Motionless, on 04 May 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Well one of the things they already talked about, that you might consider relevant, is how your weapons converge on the reticule. So there is some of what I would call a focusing-time when you go from having your reticule over a target at X distance and one at Y distance.

So if you were standing very close to the side of the hill and then quickly moved your reticule to something beyond the hill there would be a time where your weapon fire would converge before it reached the target under your reticule. So in this way your reticule is not always a fully accurate estimation of where even lasers will land.

I would say a lot of what people might be concerned bout with sniper-fests has more to do with map design than weapon mechanics.

Thats only for weapons in torso but weapons in arms can fire instantly, you have two reticles.
if i got it right

[Major Tom]

Tekkiller, on 04 May 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

lolwut?
1000meters in 3 secs = 333 m/s
333m/s = 20,000m / minute
20,000m / minute = 1,200,000 meters/hour
1,200,000 meters/hour = 1,200 kilometers /hour
That is ONE FAST JENNER!!!

Oops, convered to "turns" in my brain, then farted.

129kph = 28 seconds to travel 1000 meters

Edited by Major Tom, 04 May 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Monky]

Also 2 points of armor is 1/8th of a ton of standard armor.

Edited by monky, 04 May 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Major Tom]

monky, on 04 May 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Also 2 points of armor is 1/4th of a ton of standard armor.

16 pts per ton.
2 pts is 1/8
although at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

[Havoc2]

Direct fire weapons should always be 100% accurate. End of story. They always hit what they're aimed at.

What should take a degree of skill is ensuring that what you're aiming at is what you actually WANT to aim at.

[Togg Bott]

monky, on 04 May 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Also 2 points of armor is 1/4th of a ton of standard armor.

actually... its 1/8th



*EDIT. someone beat me to it

Edited by Togg Bott, 04 May 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[eZZip]

}{avoc, on 04 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons should always be 100% accurate. End of story. They always hit what they're aimed at.

What should take a degree of skill is ensuring that what you're aiming at is what you actually WANT to aim at.

Agreed. It's plain annoying to miss a crucial shot not because you suck, but because the game decided that you suck. It's superior design to miss shots because of lack of skill and not a RNG.

[ZnSeventeen]

The MWO forums are a little short on math today. 2 points is 1/4 of 16. Jenners go 1200kph. Next thing you know AC/20's will do more damage than AC/2's.

But I have to say, I think we could use a very small variation on perfect accuracy. Not a big one. I think time of flight, drop, weapon convergence, and stacking of weapons should make them imprecise and innacurate enough. (By stacking of weapons I mean that one weapon is usually over a foot above or below the other on the same limb.)

So a less than .01 degree inaccuracy should do the trick I expect.
(A 0 degree inaccuracy works for me too.)

Edited by ZnSeventeen, 04 May 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[SideSt3p]

Guess I'll throw down in here with how I think it could look.

Again, I'm not working with anything solid here, just pure abstract thought.

But, based on what I've read and what I'd expect out of 'Mechs, there is always one principle: Heat. So what I think PGI could be working on would be this:

• We have Weapon Convergence (see prior posts)
  
• We have a heat curve which can lead to bad things (ammo explosions, slower move speeds, etc)
  
• We combine these to and as your 'Mech heats up, your computers start acting funny (Like Real-Life) and you have targeting/performance deficincies within your 'Mech.
  
• Together we get a pretty dynamic where you want to push your 'Mechs heat curve in order to pump out damage but you also want to keep it under control so you can hit what you're aiming at.

That's just my 2cents

[chewie]

The issue with 3025 wasn't weapons being 100% accurate, it was weapons that maintained lock being able to damage you before then hit you.

eg

a swarm of lrms would hurt you due to lag or would come through a hill and hit you as you ran for cover, because the system has already decreed that you have been hit and damaged for x amounts of points of armour loss.

And yes, I definitely want my lasers to be accurate, same goes for my ppc.

I get enough bollox shots in WoT where my rounds go high, wide or low just because the RNg hates my ***, and the opposing guy gets all his shots on target.

If your in my reticule (and the dot is on a part of your mech), and stood still, and I fire, i expect my laser to hit a part of you (not neccessarily where i think i am hitting, eg aim for CT, roll a 1 and hit left leg), and stay on that part until either you or I move, thus changing the point of aim.

I know there is issues with server side reticle in WoT, and where you aimed isnt where you hit, but that only counts when you or the opponent is mobile as far as MWO goes..

We don't need wind deflection (for autocannon shots) or dispersion (for when its raining, refracting your laser beam) to affect our weapons fire, thank you very much.

Edited by chewie, 04 May 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Talon Thorn]

A weapon is only as accurate as the warrior who wields it. If you're getting head shot at 1000 meters at a full run, don't blame the weapon, blame the shooter.

[Atlai]

Tekkiller, on 04 May 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

lolwut?

1000meters in 3 secs = 333 m/s

333m/s = 20,000m / minute

20,000m / minute = 1,200,000 meters/hour

1,200,000 meters/hour = 1,200 kilometers /hour


That is ONE FAST JENNER!!!

SONIC THE HEDGEHOG!

[Monky]

Man, I caught my error right after I posted it and at least 3 other people still saw it.

MERCILESS.

Edited by monky, 04 May 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[osito]

I don't like the idea of perfect aim being used in this game. In canon at least pinpoint accuracy is unheard of in i.s. If i remember right even clan t.c guaranteed you a hit not all fire hitting within a foot of each other.

[Vollstrecker]

I would like movement to play more of a factor with accuracy than in previous iterations, in line with the tabletop rules. I don't mind if you're running high accuracy shots while standing there, but running or jumping should be giving you some jitter with your targeting.