154 replies to this topic

[Kreisel]

Personally I just feel ECM needs a little tweek and it will be ok, just change the range numbers for some of it's effects, and to interact with BAP and Modules in a more dynamic way and it would feel balanced.

Instead of cutting sensor range to 25% have it cut to 50%, that still HUGELY powerful, especially considering the sensor lockout at under 180. This means you can only get a lock on a ECM shielded mech between 181-400. The module that increases sensor range by 15% would bring this to 460, BAP would Increase it to 500, BAP+Module would have 575 Range. BAP still shuts down entirely if you get caught under 180... but it at least gives missile boats a range wider than 20 to work within and fight back... and it doesn't make the equipment on you mech just feel entirely useless because of one peice on someone else mech... plus well... ECM kinda drives AMS to being pointless right now... this would mean you'd atleast have to have BOTH to trivilize missiles, instead of just 1.5 tons doing so on it's own.

[DrVulcan]

posted this in another thread, but this is my thoughts, close to yours codejack:

First off, I would like to state that my group and I feel that ECM is fantastic overall, and has added much to the game.

With that said,after careful consideration of interaction of various balancing options and discussion with my group, I would like to suggest the following:

1) BAP allows the BAP user targeting of ECM mechs within the ECM field. The targeting time will still be effected by the ECM field however you will be able to target them.

1b) BAP provides an additional +5% range in targeting overall

2) BAP is limited by Mech chassis, similar to how ECM and Jump Jets are now, however much less limited than those are currently.

3) NARC is active for the at least (3) minutes, with up to (5) minutes depending on play testing, and works through ECM.

4) TAG no longer works through ECM, and its range remains what it is currently as of the 12/4/12 patch.

5) ECM creates a base of 1 heat for the mech operating it.

6) PPCs create a HUD disruption, where you lose your aiming cross-hairs for T+-2 seconds.

7) PPCs have a -0.5 or -1 heat reduction per round.

8) Double HS gain +0.1 to their heat dissipation rate.

9) SRM 'lag' fire time is reduced to be on par with ACs, however base fire spread is increased by 5%. Artimus spread does not suffer from this '5%' nerf (making more of a difference in artimus SRMs).

10) Pulse Laser Length of Fire is reduced by 5%, to further increase viability with heat of weapons with a tighter spread.

I feel that the above should make for a more enjoyable experience overall.

Edited by DrVulcan, 06 December 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[Codejack]

DrVulcan, on 06 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

1) BAP allows the BAP user targeting of ECM mechs within the ECM field. The targeting time will still be effected by the ECM field however you will be able to target them.

1b) BAP provides an additional +5% range in targeting overall

2) BAP is limited by Mech chassis, similar to how ECM and Jump Jets are now, however much less limited than those are currently.

The problem is that if you give the A1 Catapult BAP, the whingers will descend in force, and if you don't, you are severely gimping the chassis.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, but then, I ran a streakcat until ECM came out, and now I run a streakmando (both of which carry BAP)

[Woopass]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Just wanted a headcount on this idea:

-BAP should allow targeting of ECM-covered units while the BAP mech is within the ECM bubble, but with longer lock-on times.

-NARC should allow units outside of the ECM bubble to target the ECM-covered unit that was hit by a NARC, and should either last quite a bit longer or get more ammo/ton.

-TAG should allow lock-on for a short period (5s) after it has painted a target, as well as have the longer range.


So, a streakcat would carry a BAP so he could still target ECM mechs, but it will take longer to get lock. An LRM-boat would want a TAG so he could paint a target a few times while he is locking on, and the longer duration should let the missiles at least get close before it wears off. NARC would be a scout weapon; sneak up to an ECM-covered group, NARC the one you want, then your whole team can see that mech and that mech only, helping concentrate fire.

No whingers, please; I don't want to hear about how hard it was for your light mech to kill a heavy mech because it had more streaks.

We got similiar idea's of ECM changes. Check my post out on this thread and let me know what you think.

[color=#0000ff]http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/80990-why-ecm%E2%80%99s-are-broken-and-how-to-fix-them-tabletop-rules-considered/page__st__20[/color]

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

One Medic Army, on 06 December 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

The issue is being unable to see. Can't get cover if I can't see the terrain. Can't outrun something 50% faster with jumpjets. Can't both torso twist away and return fire. Plus torso twisting away leaves your back vulnerable, and even atlases pop to rear CT damage pretty fast.

What you refuse to grasp is what I already explained. Let me say it again. Replacing one problem with another is not a solution. You shouldn't defend the next problem just because it fixed the last problem. Like it or not, completely gutting an overpowered weapon into oblivion shouldn't be a "fix". Streaks should have been nerfed on their own, not rendered useless by a new OP piece of equipment.

[One Medic Army]

Bluten, on 07 December 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

What you refuse to grasp is what I already explained. Let me say it again. Replacing one problem with another is not a solution. You shouldn't defend the next problem just because it fixed the last problem. Like it or not, completely gutting an overpowered weapon into oblivion shouldn't be a "fix". Streaks should have been nerfed on their own, not rendered useless by a new OP piece of equipment.

One Medic Army, on 06 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Personally I would have just cut the fire rate on Streaks by 50%, or required re-locking after every shot. Not rendered them mostly useless.
But hey, I'd rather have them mostly useless than go back to the streakapult FPS annihilating, window smearing, gang**** of a couple weeks back.

[Pugastrius]

I honestly don't understand how people can think this is even remotely balanced.
Even if it was a "personal" cloak only (not a group cloak) it is still wildly over-powered.

To those people that think it's balanced, would you still think it's balanced if EVERY person ends up driving one of the four ECM mechs? You're already seeing this in the 8 man groups. Give it a month or two and that's where we're going to be (very few have the C-Bill balance to buy one the day it came out).

BTW CodeJack, I had to vote no... even with your changes it would still be wildly over-powered.

Edited by Pugastrius, 07 December 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Codejack]

Pugastrius, on 07 December 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

BTW CodeJack, I had to vote no... even with your changes it would still be wildly over-powered.

D'oh! That just ruins it!

For the record, that's not what I thought was perfectly balanced, but what I thought might be possible given the direction they are going with ECM. And the fact that the whingers are in here just bald-faced lying, trying to metagame their way into being more powerful.

[Koreanese]

My god i lost the count on your posts about ecm being overpowered. Why cant you use lasers, ac, gauss, and wonder light smashing srm? Playing streakcat is a challenge? Cant even keep a lock on a 150kph jenner? The LAG is hindering your LOCKON capabilities? Dear code jack. If you cannot use all the good weapons other then streaks and lrms then maybe this game isnt for you.

Need help with a brawler build thats easy to use and multipurpose able? I will help you personally if u add me on friends list.

But please stop your crying posts about everything in the game.

Edited by Koreanese, 07 December 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Applecrow]

We could balance out ECM vs streaks by making the streaks require no aiming, immune to netcode, and blanking out the opponent's view when they hit.

[xRatas]

ECM is overpowered right now. It certainly needs some other counter than another ECM. PUG games are completely chaotic and random now, at least there was some little coordination before, now it's just crazy.

I did not enjoy using missileboats before and didn't really enjoy fighting against them either, but now guided missiles seem to be almost extinct... Quite strong sign of failed balance, right? And again, no matter what team pilots say, PUG gaming needs to be enjoyable, or you'll find your servers shutdown before they are really started. Nothing in this world rolls for long if it doesn't raise any money. And for money, you need players.

Really, I can not understand why they have to introduce something completely gamechanging even when a lot of people say it will alter the balance a lot. Wouldn't it be much less mad if new stuff was introduced little underpowered? That way old balancing won't be thrown out from the window, and new stuff can be gradually improved so that it is in decent balance eventually. Right now balancing resembles million monkeys making random changes, and someone guessing if it is done yet.

Concentrating fire under ECM effects is rather hard with voice comms, PUG teams have no slightest hope of even basic team tactics right now thanks to it. IMO it was a really bad call to bring in ECM in it's current state, but let's see where it ends up this time. Anyway I'd much more liked to see a few streakpults and LRM boats on the field, than complete disarray we now have. (edit: while this is not gamebreaking change for me and doesn't even require altering my mech designs at all, I much preferred the pace of game before ECM.)

I can only imagine the frustration of a newcomer, for it seems to hit hard on some veterans already, and they at least know how it is supposed to work. (I bet targeting system seems quite random to someone new to the game right now... : )

Edited by xRatas, 07 December 2012 - 03:21 PM.

[KharnZor]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

I wonder if all of the hostility towards streaks and the implied lack of skill is actually projection; that is, they are complaining because the close range lock-on mechanic actually requires you to keep the reticule on the target box while it locks on, and that was too difficult for them, so they are trying to metagame their way out of their own shortcomings?

I mean, netcode lag aside, keeping the crosshairs in one place while you fire a weapon that is going to go right there is pretty easy in comparison. Note also the complete lack of evidence to support the "ECM is fine" position; it's entirely appeal to emotion and other fallacious rhetorical tricks, interspersed with outright lies.

LOL oh wow

[Codejack]

Applecrow, on 07 December 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

We could balance out ECM vs streaks by making the streaks require no aiming, immune to netcode, and blanking out the opponent's view when they hit.

/sigh

Look, no one (at least, very few people) was suggesting that SSRMs were perfect; I would have been fine with nerfing the cockpit shake, smoke, chain-firing nature of the streakcat that everyone seems to be unable to figure out how to counter, despite dozens of posts about it.

But "no aiming" is BS! You try to lock on to a Jenner circling you at 130kph, it's much easier to just point and click with a laser, or even lead with light AC (heavy AC is harder, granted, but that's part of the trade-off). Unless you have bad netcode lag, and some of us clearly get it worse than others.

Basically, what you are saying is that people with bad netcode lag are bad players and should change their entire playstyle to suit you, because you can't figure out how to counter a one trick pony like a streakcat. In the meantime, I have just switched over to a Commando with streaks, and have been merrily going about my business.

[Apex Predat0r]

Doesn't need a fix. ECM works fine, maybe it's time to stop relying as heavily on guided easy weapons.

[Codejack]

Apex Predat0r, on 07 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Doesn't need a fix. ECM works fine, maybe it's time to stop relying as heavily on guided easy weapons.

Why should I? I'm doing just fine with them. You didn't nerf streaks, you just nerf'd 1 variant of 1 chassis for PUGers.

[Applecrow]

Everyone has trouble hitting lights with the netcode, but you are suggesting that the best weapon for killing lights is the "hardest" to use when streaks virtually ignore netcode that every single other weapon has to deal with.

My lasers and AC rounds might register where I see the mech to be, but that might not be where it actually is. Streaks will lock off the visual but hit the real mech (aside from terrain). Streaks will hit a target that isn't in your reticle if you still have a lock.

Not to mention the fact that while you are holding for a lock you aren't wasting ammo/gaining heat, whereas the laser/ac mech is.

Is ECM perfect? No, I agree it's a band-aid. It doesn't kill streakcats at all, it just makes them require awareness to be useful while also pointing out inherent problems with relying on one and only one weapon system.

Edited by Applecrow, 07 December 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[Codejack]

Applecrow, on 07 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Everyone has trouble hitting lights with the netcode, but you are suggesting that the best weapon for killing lights is the "hardest" to use when streaks virtually ignore netcode that every single other weapon has to deal with.

My lasers and AC rounds might register where I see the mech to be, but that might not be where it actually is. Streaks will lock off the visual but hit the real mech (aside from terrain). Streaks will hit a target that isn't in your reticle if you still have a lock.

Is ECM perfect? No, I agree it's a band-aid. It doesn't kill streakcats at all, it just makes them require awareness to be useful while also pointing out inherent problems with relying on one and only one weapon system.

There's some of that, but the fact is that netcode problems affect people differently, and you can't balance a game based on bad data. It replaced a slightly broken mechanic with a seriously broken mechanic.

[Zylo]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Do you have any idea how upset people who have actually run a streakcat get when you say this? You go try to hold a reticule on a 140kph, jump-jetting Jenner, then come back and tell me that it's easy. It isn't.

I tried a streak cat the last 2 days before ECM to see if it really was as OP as people claimed. Never played the streak cat before that time. IT WAS EASY!

That jump-jetting Jenner? Shot out of the sky. That warping commando? Fired all 6 streaks and 1-shotted it. Actually, even holding the reticle on another fast moving light while playing a light is easy if you know how to react to what the other pilot is doing. The streak cat required no skill at all to use before ECM. It was so easy that it was actually boring to play.


Since many fast mechs now mount ECM this gives the impression that ECM is OP due to what light mechs are currently able to do. Lights are currently OP due to the lack of collisions rather than the addition of ECM. Many players including light pilots have asked for the collisions to be returned to balance the light mechs.

I play light mechs sometimes and I want collisions returned as this provides a way to deal with a lagged out light mech. It can just be rammed, knocked over and focus fired while it is on the ground.

[Codejack]

Zylo, on 07 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

I tried a streak cat the last 2 days before ECM to see if it really was as OP as people claimed. Never played the streak cat before that time. IT WAS EASY!

That jump-jetting Jenner? Shot out of the sky. That warping commando? Fired all 6 streaks and 1-shotted it. Actually, even holding the reticle on another fast moving light while playing a light is easy if you know how to react to what the other pilot is doing. The streak cat required no skill at all to use before ECM. It was so easy that it was actually boring to play.

No offense, dude, but it sounds like you were fighting crappy enemies; did you catch them in the open, without cover? Then that was their first mistake.

Beyond that, I maintain that a heavy mech specifically designed to kill lights should be good at it.

Zylo, on 07 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Since many fast mechs now mount ECM this gives the impression that ECM is OP due to what light mechs are currently able to do. Lights are currently OP due to the lack of collisions rather than the addition of ECM. Many players including light pilots have asked for the collisions to be returned to balance the light mechs.

I play light mechs sometimes and I want collisions returned as this provides a way to deal with a lagged out light mech. It can just be rammed, knocked over and focus fired while it is on the ground.

Oh, sure; I'm playing a Commando mostly, right now, and they definitely need collisions, but unless you have a friend, I'm not going to let you get that close.

And that's pretty much the only way I die in my Halfcat; being outnumbered so that one enemy can get a clear shot as my circle bends towards him. Or outnumbered by someone with ECM and getting missiled

I think that that is a problem.

[Zylo]

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

No offense, dude, but it sounds like you were fighting crappy enemies; did you catch them in the open, without cover? Then that was their first mistake.

Beyond that, I maintain that a heavy mech specifically designed to kill lights should be good at it.



Oh, sure; I'm playing a Commando mostly, right now, and they definitely need collisions, but unless you have a friend, I'm not going to let you get that close.

And that's pretty much the only way I die in my Halfcat; being outnumbered so that one enemy can get a clear shot as my circle bends towards him. Or outnumbered by someone with ECM and getting missiled

I think that that is a problem.

I seemed to be hitting River city most of the matches when I was playing the A1 for those 2 days so there was plenty of cover. If the enemy wanted to hide I just used the jumpjets and fired down at them. It was very easy to kill anything, not just lights. In 2 days of playing the A1 I doubt every enemy team I ran into was made up of unskilled players as I recognized many names on the enemy teams that were part of merc groups that are known to be good players. The fact that many of these players were easy kills in the streak cat is a pretty clear indication that it was more than a little OP but even I didn't believe it was so OP until I finally tried it.

Now the streak cat requires an ECM capable mech as an escort to attack ECM protected targets. It's not totally useless if it has support against ECM protected targets.