80 replies to this topic

[FrupertApricot]

It seems that right now the main reason half the weapons in the game considered non viable or OP are so by virtues of quirks of the heat system. The first major digression from tabletop has been the setting of DHS to 1.4x. Would the community be willing to deal with a few patch periods of the DHS being set to a higher cooling rate to test if it balances well and helps diversify builds?

[Redshift2k5]

By half you mean... PPC and ERPPC?

1.4 DHS work fantastic for a huge rang of mech builds, and you must account for the pilot lab skills that increase both that dissipation rate and heat limit.

It was tested internally and it was deemed overpowered, as said by Paul. If you think Paul Inouye doesn't know how to play this game, you've got a lot to learn.

[Dukov Nook]

Heat is fine. Pilot heat management is where the problem is.

[MustrumRidcully]

I would put it at 2.0. I wold definitely not have engine and out-of engine heat sinks behave differently.

If any weapons turn out to be OP now - nerf them accordingly.

The Medium and Small Lasers would probably end up being problematic, but at least canonical mech configurations would work a bit closer to how they should (or at least the canon stock mechs with double heat sinks wouldn't end up being even worse than the canon stock mechs with single heat sinks already are). And we would have a use for ER Weapons and PPCs.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 December 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

The issues with canon stock mechs with DHS is not the DHS, it's that they're all loaded with ERPPC, which are a severely borked weapon system.

There are already ppc/erppc buffs planned.

[Joseph Mallan]

red the issue IS the double sinks. Canon Awesome-9M CAN Alpha it's 3ERPPCs 5 times before over heating on the 6th. This is with neutral climate and 0 movement. That is how the Heat mechanic is supposed to work. presently this is totally broken. The issue isn't with the weapon it is the heat mechanic.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dukov Nook, on 06 December 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Heat is fine. Pilot heat management is where the problem is.

I can't say it often enough: Cow Excrement.

It is not a question of heat management whether certain weapons have become overpowered or underpowered due to the way heat management worked.

A good pilot recognize efficient weapons and will equip his mech accordingly. It doesn't matter if you manage to neve rever overheat with your Awesome 9M - to achieve that, you will have to settle for a low damage output, that is exceeded by weapons with similar range that have to accept no other significant drawbacks.

That's the fundamental thing some people don't seem to get. Yes, heat management is important. We shouldn't remove heat.

But just because heat is important doesn't mean that any level of heat on a weapon is okay. And what heat is acceptable on a weapon depends on how much it costs to dissipate that heat (or enough of that heat to last long enough to be useful). The heat sinks mechanic determine how much each point of heat will cost you.

[Budor]

TT is that way Sir --->

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

I can't say it often enough: Cow Excrement.
But just because heat is important doesn't mean that any level of heat on a weapon is okay.

Why not reduce heat on the weapons in question than before altering a mechanic that would **** with ALL others to.

Edited by Budor, 06 December 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[Dukov Nook]

People need to get over this 'cannon' issue when dealing with a decades old ruleset for a pen and paper game attempting to be translated to a modern day video game. Things are going to change. The ruleset was based for turn play. Of course things will change in a real time environment.

[MustrumRidcully]

Budor, on 06 December 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

TT is that way Sir --->

Why do you think must an Awesome overheat so quickly? FOrget TT: What's your argument , why is it only balanced the way it is?

[Redshift2k5]

I run DHS on most of my mechs and they work fine.

The canon is not relevant to settle discussion; it's a good starting point but actual gameplay takes precedence.

If you buff DHS, you still won't be fixing ERPPC, because the other weapons you are comparing the ERPPC to will also get a big fat heat buff, and the ERPPC will still be crap in comparison.

Full 2.0 DHS breeds stagnation by giving too much heat dissipation (or bonus tonnage) to the builds that don't need it. and it would make DHS the only viable option for any build for any variant of any mech.

[Dukov Nook]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

Why do you think must an Awesome overheat so quickly? FOrget TT: What's your argument , why is it only balanced the way it is?

Let me ask you this.

Is there a Mechwarrior PC game you have played were the Awesome DIDNT overheat quickly? Thing was a nightmare in MW4.

[Budor]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

Why do you think must an Awesome overheat so quickly? FOrget TT: What's your argument , why is it only balanced the way it is?

1. Non stock awesomes do not overheat that quickly
2. All mechs still overheat to quickly when using ER LLs or (ER) PPCs
3. This is a problem that can be tackled by adjusting the problematic weapons NOT the heatsinks...

Redshift2k5, on 06 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

I run DHS on most of my mechs and they work fine.

The canon is not relevant to settle discussion; it's a good starting point but actual gameplay takes precedence.

If you buff DHS, you still won't be fixing ERPPC, because the other weapons you are comparing the ERPPC to will also get a big fat heat buff, and the ERPPC will still be crap in comparison.

Full 2.0 DHS breeds stagnation by giving too much heat dissipation (or bonus tonnage) to the builds that don't need it. and it would make DHS the only viable option for any build for any variant of any mech.

/thread

Edited by Budor, 06 December 2012 - 05:14 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dukov Nook, on 06 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Let me ask you this.

Is there a Mechwarrior PC game you have played were the Awesome DIDNT overheat quickly? Thing was a nightmare in MW4.

Megamek it works pretty neat.

The question is - is it balanced if it overheats so fast? It could be that in the other PC games, it was, because PPCs were more powerful than they are in MW:O. I don't know. Forget TT; forget other Mechwarrior games. Look at the balance implications in this game.


For a mech that tries to install enough weapons to deliver 240 damage over 20 seconds and uses a 250 rated engine, the current efficiency (damage divided by tonnage required in heat sinks, ammo for 6 such engagements, and the weapons itself) looks like this:



Small and Medium Lasers are extremely efficent. They are too strong, basically. No one seems to care really, but it may be a reason why some people stil lcomplain that Auto-Cannons aren't strong enough (in addition to convergenc eproblems, projectile speed problems, and potentially damage spread problems) - they may be implciitely comparing to medium lasers that many mechs utilize.

Large Lasers seem kinda okay, though they a bit weaker than AC/5s.

PPCs, ER Large Lasers, ER PPCs are outperformed considereable by all ballistics excemt the MG (who, would have thought, the MG sucks...)

There are two ways to improve things: Real Double Heat Sinks. Yes, the'll make Medium Laser and SMall lasers even better - but they'll also improve the pulse lasers, PPCs, ER LArge Lasers and ER PPCs, and we only have to dial down the medium and small lasers.

Or we be buff only the PPC, ER Large Laser, and ER PPC. And then the Large Pulse Laser, the Medium Pulse Laser and the Small Pulse Laser.

So we either nerf 2 weapons and implement real double heat sinks, or we buff 6 weapons.

And then, we should look at the ballistics and ensure that they are reasonably efficient (I would expect that longer range would lead to weaker efficiency, after all, range is an advantage.)

What you take, I don't care anymore. Just get on with it, damnit!

And if you want more analysis, for different targeted goals, I have it all. I can give you spreadsheets and graphs and whatever.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 December 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[Budor]

Im all for buffing PPCs, ER PPCs and ER Lasers but messing with the heatsinks would be a...mess. The smaller ACs also generate a lot off heat and they would be overbuffed with any heatsinks that do better than now.

[MustrumRidcully]

Budor, on 06 December 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Im all for buffing PPCs, ER PPCs and ER Lasers but messing with the heatsinks would be a...mess. The smaller ACs also generate a lot off heat and they would be overbuffed with any heatsinks that do better than now.

Interestingly, at least for the scenarios I used, no Auto-Cannon delivered enough heat that it needed to worry much about it, except the AC/2. The AC/2 is also a perfect example of a weapon that is already problematic now, just like the medium and small lasers.

That's why I do not think that changing DHS is worse than changing the underpowered weapon.

But whatever - get on with it, PGI!

I believe however, that the current DHS implementation is unfair to heavier mechs. It would be fairer if all Double Heat Sinks had the same strength. Especially if Garth or Paul are so worried about Jenners or Cicadas dealing too much damage!

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 December 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[FiveDigits]

The balancing up until now has been bass ackwards:

• Take TT as base line.
  
• Triple firing rate, double armor.
  
• Nerf DHS to 1.4 to prevent extreme Medium Laser builds (or whatever they thought to achieve).
  
• Buff large energy weapons to make them viable again???
  
• Profit.

What they should have done:

• Take TT as base line.
  
• Triple firing rate and ammo. Reduce damage and heat generation per shot to 1/3 (or triple heat capacity and disspation).
  
• Adjust weapons that may be unbalanced.
  
• ???
  
• Profit.

No need to touch DHS at all.

[Allekatrase]

Just like to ask this:

If TT is a completely different animal then why are all the trial mechs pulled straight from it and why are mechs sold with stock variants from it?

The departure from anything resembling TT rules has made a large number of these builds useless. If you're going to completely depart from those rules then don't lock people into mechs that were designed using them.

[FerretGR]

Budor, on 06 December 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

Why not reduce heat on the weapons in question than before altering a mechanic that would **** with ALL others to.

That's a very good question. Why not work on the weapons that are problematic instead of laying the blame on DHS and nerfing them, something that affects other weapon systems, in turn throwing them out of whack?

Garth, in another thread, said the real issue with DHS is the 6ML Jenner/Cicada. He says the DHS 1.4 nerf is in place to keep that particular build from being able to alpha infinitely. Which it can basically do now, I might add, as a Cicada pilot.

If MLs are a problem, fix the problem by focusing on them, not by using a convoluted nerf of other systems. In nerfing DHS you nerf PPCs, ER weapons, and LLs to a certain extent. In not nerfing DHS you buff MLs to an unacceptable level according to devs (debatable, but for the sake of the argument we'll accept that). So neither is the answer. The answer is to nerf MLs (and give us 2.0 DHS) or buff PPCs/ERs/LLs (and leave DHS in their current, convoluted state).

Edited by FerretGR, 06 December 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dukov Nook, on 06 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

People need to get over this 'cannon' issue when dealing with a decades old ruleset for a pen and paper game attempting to be translated to a modern day video game. Things are going to change. The ruleset was based for turn play. Of course things will change in a real time environment.

In some instances this is correct Dukov. But in this one... Sorry no. 20 double sinks should almost handle the heat of 3 ER PPCs, and by almost I mean the Mech should be capable of firing 3PPCs several timers (5) before shut down. That is using the MechWarrior video games as a reference as well as TT. 40 sinks should be capable of dealing with me firing 3 ER PPCs on a 3/2 cycle all game long. I should stay warm but I should not shut down at all. The Awesome is an Assault Mech, which means it's being in a battle should scare the crap out of the enemy cause it will hurt them badly. The 9M is a joke with heat the way it is now.

As with Garth's Cicada with 6 medium lasers and 19(38) double sinks. He should never even get on the heat scale, let alone overheat, cause last I checked 38>30. One turn in TT is, your movement+Single shot of your weapons-heat. That is the formula that needs to be followed.