50 replies to this topic

[Deathz Jester]

Dihm, on 14 May 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

FYI, according to lore, even a Clanner fresh out of training is a better pilot and gunner than a regular IS mech jock. So, historically, they have better tech and better pilots.

Historically speaking, I'd love to hear someone from Smoke Jaguar say that.... oh wait... they're dead. (referring to the books, not MW:O timeline reset)

[Ashla Mason]

Iron Harlequin, on 17 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Historically speaking, I'd love to hear someone from Smoke Jaguar say that.... oh wait... they're dead. (referring to the books, not MW:O timeline reset)

Yes. Let's ignore that they were defeated (at great cost) on luthien thanks in no small part to the arrival of the two best mercenary companies in the galaxy (one of whom was descended from clan wolf), followed by horrific casualties on Tukkayid because they allowed there pride to get the better of them followed by years of raids by the home clans, ghost bear and the combine for 8 years that prevented them from recovering. Oh and it was a massive assault by a multi-nation taskforce that ultimately destroyed the clan.

Frankly, what happened to the jaguars could have happened just as easily to clan wolf, Jade falcon or ghost bear if they had been the target of the bolded part.

[Stormwolf]

neodym, on 14 May 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

so when clans come out,I believe there will be strong similiarity between IS and Clan mechs,like 65ton long range support Catapult we have Vulture/Mad Dog dedicated to same thing,they even both have two LRM 15s

I am not big expert I want to hear you opinion about what would be clan analogues

please make posts clear,easily readable,not this block ocean of words maze,thanks

There are no direct analogues, But I will give it a shot:

Atlas - Dire Wolf Prime and A (lots of armor heavy hitter)
Awesome - Warhawk Prime (both PPC boats)
Catapult - Summoner B (missile boats with JJ's)
Centurion - Kit Fox Prime/Adder D/Nova D (somewhat similar loadouts)
Cicada (3025 tech) - Ice Ferret D (essentially the same thing)
Commando - Fire Moth Prime (scout armed with mainly SRM's)
Dragon - Stormcrow A and C (similar capabilities)
Hunchback - Hunchback IIC or Stormcrow B (though the Hunchback IIC has a slightly different function)
Jenner - Viper Prime (Jenner IIC has a vastly different loadout)
Raven - Mist Lynx Prime, A or C (the Phantom fits it better, but it is not around yet)

[Jaroth Corbett]

Lt Trevnor, on 14 May 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Actually, once again, it all comes down to pilot skill level. If a clanner is a greenhorn fresh out sibko, a veteran pilot that's taken part in Operation Bulldog or Serpent will tear him apart.

Actually no. I call bullshit on that.

Quote

"Placing his palms flat on the desk, Wolf leaned forward. "Now the two of us will become your instructors. Some of you have already seen battle, but even with that, the total sum of experience of those seated at this table would not equal what the average Clan warrior goes through in his training."

Even though this is before Bulldog & Serpent, it still holds true. IS pilots do not go through what a Clan warrior goes through in training.

Quote

The flame-haired MechWarrior laughed lightly. "No. You misunderstood me. Simulators are for children, so we don't use them. You'll be mounting up in a real 'Mech, an Omni-Mech. This will be like no other ride you've ever had." She planted her hand in the small of his back and gave him a slight push. "Move it. Let's get you saddled up."

Quote

"My God, she's using live ordnance! Is she crazy?"
All levity dropped from Natasha's voice. "No, she's just doing her job. I told you before. Simulators are for kids. Her shells are underpowered, just as are your lasers. That goes for the other two Foxes hunting you out there."
Phelan swallowed hard as the computer assessed the damage to his armor. "That stuff may be down-powered, but it still ripped up some armor. This is just a training exercise."
"You'll have to watch your step because you can get killed out here. That's the problem with simulator combat. Even if you screw up, you get another chance. But a real battle never offers that sort of mercy."

Please guy, slip those statements in when I am asleep or something.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 17 May 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Volume]

Jaroth Winson, on 17 May 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

snip

I really need to read that book.

But yeah! My take on the "skill difference" is that it's a terrible way to balance because if you give two semi-decent pilots two different 'Mechs, and one is way better than the other, the one with the better equipment will perform better. You can't balance based upon player "skill" because at the maximum skill ceiling, the best equipment will still be the best choice, especially to maintain parity with other skilled players. Reality sinks in and while yes, a skilled pilot can overcome handicap due to equipment, what if they're equally skilled? One must be more cunning, or tactical, but if they both have similar accuracy and the same opportunities present themselves, then what?

Also, back on topic, yeah, many Clan 'Mechs have two roles on the battlefield, or can fulfill both. Something like the Timber Wolf will outgun, outrun, and outlast any IS counterpart, and can play several different roles, at different ranges. Like most Clan 'Mechs, it's a very versatile design. More of a jack-of-all-trades, though, compared to a true specialist. But they have those too, so...their dedicated fire support 'Mechs (Warhawk Prime) for example will be vastly superior to IS "counterparts" (Awesome) and I truly feel that despite certain design parallels, they are really non-comparable.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Volume, on 18 May 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

I really need to read that book.

Do you have it or do you need it?

Quote

But yeah! My take on the "skill difference" is that it's a terrible way to balance because if you give two semi-decent pilots two different 'Mechs, and one is way better than the other, the one with the better equipment will perform better. You can't balance based upon player "skill" because at the maximum skill ceiling, the best equipment will still be the best choice, especially to maintain parity with other skilled players. Reality sinks in and while yes, a skilled pilot can overcome handicap due to equipment, what if they're equally skilled? One must be more cunning, or tactical, but if they both have similar accuracy and the same opportunities present themselves, then what?


Also, back on topic, yeah, many Clan 'Mechs have two roles on the battlefield, or can fulfill both. Something like the Timber Wolf will outgun, outrun, and outlast any IS counterpart, and can play several different roles, at different ranges. Like most Clan 'Mechs, it's a very versatile design. More of a jack-of-all-trades, though, compared to a true specialist. But they have those too, so...their dedicated fire support 'Mechs (Warhawk Prime) for example will be vastly superior to IS "counterparts" (Awesome) and I truly feel that despite certain design parallels, they are really non-comparable.

Clan pilots are superior PERIOD. Anybody else who wants to challenge that is welcome to but will be met with all the quotes & references from the sourcebooks & novels that I can muster. DEAL WITH IT. IS pilots do not compare to their Clan counterparts. About time you House fans accept that fact. The only advantages the IS ever had were the rules the Clans governed themselves by:

1. Zellbrigen (which meant they could only team up under specific conditions)
2. Bidding (which reduced the warriors actually fighting the battles)

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Jaroth Winson, on 18 May 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

stuff

as has been pointed out; all that superiority was evidently for naught during Luthien, Tukkayyid, Operation Bulldog. One of the lessons that was supposed to be taken from the defeat of the clans was their fall from their perceived perfection. "Pride goeth before the fall" and all that jazz.
clutch your lore tightly all you want, lore says clans lost the entire invasion, ergo the whole crux of their existence, their perfection failed them at the height of their operations.

as for clan to IS anaglogues, there are none. You see, in the I.S. there is no game-breaking technology, so mechs have to rely on each other. As pointed out the Catapult and the Mad Dog. This is how laughably easy mode clan tech is:

Mad dog is 5 tons lighter, carries two LRM 20s which means no minimum lock-on range.
is 20kph faster than the catapult. Carries an XL engine and Ferro Fibrous armor AND double heat sinks.
If that wasn't bad enough, it can also go on the offensive in an attack role sporting two Large Pulse Lasers (which have the range of LRMs BTW)
and two Medium Pulse lasers.

yeah, no IS support mech can match that. Catapult is the definition of support, with only 4 medium lasers as back up, once those LRM's clack dry the Catapult needs to retire for ammo.

no amount of skill could ever make up for this situation, the Mad Dog outguns the catapult by 2; the LRMs and the Large Pulse lasers.

If any clanner honks off about how skilled they are, ignore them; how can they argue skill when they literally pilot the best mechs money can buy? did I mention too, that they didn't earn the tech boost, being a trueborn, they're just handed that stuff.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 20 May 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[990Dreams]

Well, anything that is IIC is obviously clan.

[Joe Davion 86]

@Jaroth - so the Smoke Jags isolating themselves by attempting political intrigue had nothing to do with it??? If they had not ruined their reputation with the other Clans then surely they could have asked for the help of their trothkin? And yes they did ask but because the IS correctly assumed that the other Clans would view it as an interal Smoke Jaguar issue, none of the other Clans intervened. Superior Piloting is nothing when faced with superior numbers (on the order that TF Serpent brought at any rate)

Edited by Joe Davion 86, 20 May 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Tirael]

to all those who were wondering why we won't see the marauder in battle, the reason is because the mech designs for both the Warhammer and the Marauder were adapted from designs originally found in the "Super Dimension Fortress Macross" anime, and its Americanization, "Robotech"; as such, Harmony Gold (which adapted robotech) owns the rights to those designs as intellectual property and last i heard they were NOT up for sale.

[Joe Davion 86]

@tirael while this is true of the UNSEEN marauder, longbow, all the other "mecha" that were copied; the RESEEN (per project pheonix) can be used. This was FASA's way of getting around HG because the 'Mechs were so well loved they figured out a way to keep make the minis making them canon. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Reseen
I bid you adieu

[Uncle Totty]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 20 May 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

as has been pointed out; all that superiority was evidently for naught during Luthien, Tukkayyid...

Tell that to the ComGards who were fighting Clan Wolf.

Also, you do know that the Clas have been fight each other for hundreds of years right? That it was never always just Clan vs IS?

[Evinthal]

Iron Harlequin, on 17 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Historically speaking, I'd love to hear someone from Smoke Jaguar say that.... oh wait... they're dead. (referring to the books, not MW:O timeline reset)

Actually they didn't truly 'die' they reappear in the Battletech timeline during the Word of Blake Jihad and even later in the dark age period as 'the Fidelis'.

Adridos, on 14 May 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Why would we get 2 of the same mech? Clans would win all the time, because...

I will make an example on your example: The Catapult, while looking similar to Vulture is slower and has less armor. Vulture not only fits attack better, its missiles have a lot longer range and in a direct fight, Catapult doesn't stand a chance.

Its missiles do not have a longer range. Clan LRMs and IS LRMS have the same range as one another. the difference is that the Clan LRMS do not have a MINIMUM range at which the warheads need to travel before they can detonate correctly. The IS could 'hot-load' their LRMs in order to over come this, but if the launcher took a hit the ammo inside of it would detonate.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Joe Davion 86, on 20 May 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

@Jaroth - so the Smoke Jags isolating themselves by attempting political intrigue had nothing to do with it??? If they had not ruined their reputation with the other Clans then surely they could have asked for the help of their trothkin? And yes they did ask but because the IS correctly assumed that the other Clans would view it as an interal Smoke Jaguar issue, none of the other Clans intervened. Superior Piloting is nothing when faced with superior numbers (on the order that TF Serpent brought at any rate)

How the hell does political intrigue even enter into this conversation? And you are quite wrong, superior piloting evens out when faced with superior numbers. Victor Steiner-Davion said so as a matter of fact. A.Focht also noticed that if the Clans had followed Ulric's battle plan they would have wiped the floor with the ComGuards on Tukayyid. If you would like the direct quotes, I would be more than happy to provide them. These are the "protagonists" of the lore who in that universe noted they only won because they had superior numbers & the Clans were never truly unified but it was never a case of "we have more so we will win", it was always a case of "holy **** they are going through our warriors like underwear, good thing we got a lot of spares". So no your point is moot. Guy if you ever have to refute something I said go to the damn lore & quote it. Your conjecture is nothing when faced with the facts of the source material.

Also let us not forget the fact that the Clans had less warriors by choice.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 20 May 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[Evinthal]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 20 May 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

as has been pointed out; all that superiority was evidently for naught during Luthien, Tukkayyid, Operation Bulldog. One of the lessons that was supposed to be taken from the defeat of the clans was their fall from their perceived perfection. "Pride goeth before the fall" and all that jazz.
clutch your lore tightly all you want, lore says clans lost the entire invasion, ergo the whole crux of their existence, their perfection failed them at the height of their operations.

as for clan to IS anaglogues, there are none. You see, in the I.S. there is no game-breaking technology, so mechs have to rely on each other. As pointed out the Catapult and the Mad Dog. This is how laughably easy mode clan tech is:

Mad dog is 5 tons lighter, carries two LRM 20s which means no minimum lock-on range.
is 20kph faster than the catapult. Carries an XL engine and Ferro Fibrous armor AND double heat sinks.
If that wasn't bad enough, it can also go on the offensive in an attack role sporting two Large Pulse Lasers (which have the range of LRMs BTW)
and two Medium Pulse lasers.

yeah, no IS support mech can match that. Catapult is the definition of support, with only 4 medium lasers as back up, once those LRM's clack dry the Catapult needs to retire for ammo.

no amount of skill could ever make up for this situation, the Mad Dog outguns the catapult by 2; the LRMs and the Large Pulse lasers.

If any clanner honks off about how skilled they are, ignore them; how can they argue skill when they literally pilot the best mechs money can buy? did I mention too, that they didn't earn the tech boost, being a trueborn, they're just handed that stuff.

Did not earn the tech boost? Ha to that good sir, Ha to that. They are 'handed' that stuff after they successfully complete training. If you do not complete training, you get dumped into one of the lower castes. No second chances really (with the rare exception of Aidan Pryde).

You surrats get it easy with your simulators. Clanners suck it up and take live fire for their trials of positions.

Clans EARN every bit of that tech.

[Straylight]

Clan vs. IS bickering aside; no, there does not need to be direct analogues across sides for machines, nor should there be. Asset-level symmetry is needlessly pedantic so long as engagement-level parity is achieved. It seems to me that the best way to do this without neutering Clan tech is to cant the team sizes in favor of the IS: A Clan star against two IS lances; a Clan binary against an IS reinforced company. Given 3050s tech, a not-quite 2:1 advantage feels like it would be about right.

There is also a difference in interconnectivity between battlefield assets. C3 suites (and it's turbocharged ComGuard model, the C3i), TAG lasers, NARCs and dedicated electronics warfare platforms like the Raven are largely the province of the IS at this point, and their greater battlefield awareness compared to the one-on-one dueling mindset of the Clans of the era means they can better coordinate and react to changing conditions. The Clans don't have less effective electronics, but they do use them less frequently in this era.

In terms of general role grouping, I suspect we'll see rough equivalence just by the nature of the world's design rules and building things that fit general tactical roles. As a concession to faction balance, we'll probably see the same number of each role type among the Clans as we have with the IS, but perhaps not in the same tonnages or even weight classes. The 75 ton Timberwolf can slug it out toe-to-toe with any Assault 'mech the IS can muster at this point, and will generally annihilate anything else in its own weight class one-on-one (that's why your friend in the Catapult is raining hell down on the Timberwolf while you dive in and keep it distracted with your Centurion's autocannon), so while we may get three IS Assaults to start, we may only see two Clan Assaults at first.

There's also the cultural considerations, which I touched on above with the Clan duelist mindset. The bidding system and Zellbrigen have created, in this era, a kind of glory-hounding tendency among the Clan pilots. They're at the top of their societal hierarchy in a society that promotes a ruthlessly survival-of-the-fittest mindset; Warriors were tough enough to survive training, Star Commanders were tough enough to survive being a Warrior, etc. The Khan of a Clan is, in theory, the best Mechwarrior in that Clan. How do you excel in Clan society? By winning duels. How do you win duels? Well, it's not by sitting on a ridge half a kilometer behind the action and lobbing LRMs into the fight.

Clan pilots wouldn't want a dedicated support 'mech any more than they would want a dedicated EWF 'mech. That's what tanks and Solahma units are for. Front-line mechwarriors want front-line 'mechs. LRMs are to get your enemy's attention while you close in to AC and SSRM range; lasers are for when you want to finish someone off without wasting ammo.

[Davers]

Personally, I wonder how the Clans and their tech will be intergrated with the game. After investing a year of playtime, it will be upsetting to find all the components and weapons I bought are now worthless. Is everyone going to be forced to upgrade everything to Clan tech? What would the value of IS stuff be then?
Will the Clans have their own factions? If they just say, "Here are some new factions <insert clan names here> They have better everything than you IS guys.", I don't think I would like that very much. After all, what would be the choice? Ditch the faction I have spent a year earning points for and supporting, or lose in every match vs superior tech?

[Jaroth Corbett]

You will have superior numbers as the IS. Plus you will not have the same restrictions as the Clan pilots.

[Ashla Mason]

Jaroth Winson, on 20 May 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

How the hell does political intrigue even enter into this conversation?

Hi. We're discussing the battletech universe, where political intrigue determines everything from when you go to war to whetehr you want your reciet with that. The idea that the clans don't have issues with this is ridiculously naieve.

Quote

Also let us not forget the fact that the Clans had less warriors by choice.

*sigh*

Let me explain this to you, since you obviously don't understand clan society.

Efficient warfare is what defines virtually every aspect of clan society, and from the time that they are born clan warriors are tested and observed for any sign of weakness which is immediatley culled from the sibko. The philosophy of bidding ensures that only the best warriors available engage in combat, aquiring glory and have the opportunity to aquire a blood name (there by ensuring that the finest traits of there genetic code are used in the next generation of warriors).

Frankly, the system of bidding allows conflict to be swiftly concluded, avoids issues with insurgency and ensures that only the best warriors from both sides are used. The only flaw with it is that the IS isn't always faithful to the rules of engagement.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ashla Mason, on 21 May 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Hi. We're discussing the battletech universe, where political intrigue determines everything from when you go to war to whetehr you want your reciet with that. The idea that the clans don't have issues with this is ridiculously naieve.


*sigh*

Let me explain this to you, since you obviously don't understand clan society.

Efficient warfare is what defines virtually every aspect of clan society, and from the time that they are born clan warriors are tested and observed for any sign of weakness which is immediatley culled from the sibko. The philosophy of bidding ensures that only the best warriors available engage in combat, aquiring glory and have the opportunity to aquire a blood name (there by ensuring that the finest traits of there genetic code are used in the next generation of warriors).

Frankly, the system of bidding allows conflict to be swiftly concluded, avoids issues with insurgency and ensures that only the best warriors from both sides are used. The only flaw with it is that the IS isn't always faithful to the rules of engagement.

Hi. At the time of my reply to that post we were discussing the balance or imbalance between superior pilots to superior numbers. THAT is why I asked that. Maybe you should pay attention before you jump into a conversation. If we were discussing the BT universe on the whole of course politics would come up.

*sigh*

I am sorry. Did you just type I do not understand clan society? Here's what Mr.14 posts instead of me wasting my time reading whatever nonsense you typed after that sentence, how about you go to my profile & check my posts. Everything I ever discussed about the Clans, I have quoted directly from the source material.

Where do you people come from? I do not understand clan society. Thank you for the early morning laugh there. You made my sides hurt.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 21 May 2012 - 08:04 AM.