6 replies to this topic

[KhanCipher]

no, this isn't a ecm is OP rant... it's more of a AMS has a reason to go kill itself because of ECM.

with the introduction of ECM the AMS now has close to no reason for existing. it's job was suppose to be reducing missile damage taken (it was crap at doing it too), it doesn't do that anymore because ECM is keeping missiles from being fired (besides SRMs).

My suggestion is to

ECM:

A.) remove the denial of missile locks from ECM.
B.) When in the bubble you take 2x longer to gain a missile lock.

AMS:

A.) Buff it so it always shoots down 50% of the missiles, or make it actually useful outside of stacking them.
B.) It only fires if the missiles are fired at the unit carrying AMS.


So before you tell me to "L2P", just ask yourself why have 2 pieces of equipment that do the same thing, but one does it 100x better?

[Syllogy]

No.

AMS is the alternative and only other true, active defense to LRM's.

As a bonus, all mechs can equip AMS.

In my opinion, the only tweaks to ECM should be that the bubble is reduced to 150m, and the effective sensor range is changed to 27.5% of normal range (instead of 25%)

Effectively, this means that the sweet spot for missile locks changes from 180m-200m (inside of 180m you are in ECM range and effectively jammed, outside of 200m, and you can't get a target lock)

Instead, the sweet spot is 150m - 250m, a 100m range instead of 20m range.

It still encourages diversity in builds, but also isn't as totally unforgiving when it comes to missile boats.

Edited by Syllogy, 07 December 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[KhanCipher]

so it's ok that AMS has a drawback, but it's next to useless because ECM does it so much better but it has no drawback? and no being able to equip it to a limited number of mechs doesn't count, because that isn't really a valid balancing tool.

[Syllogy]

KhanCipher, on 07 December 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

so it's ok that AMS has a drawback, but it's next to useless because ECM does it so much better but it has no drawback? and no being able to equip it to a limited number of mechs doesn't count, because that isn't really a valid balancing tool.

Uh... what?

Please explain the drawbacks of the AMS as it is?

AMS can be equipped by EVERY mech, and AMS currently shoots down 3-5 missiles per group, which means that a single AMS has a chance to actually shoot down 100% of the missiles fired from mechs with single 5-tube launchers.

Groups of 2 or more can effectively create an umbrella and totally neutralize LRM boats.

Also, please explain how an AMS system shooting down 50% of every volley is a buff, and not a detriment in this case.

Also, please explain why an Atlas-K (which can equip 2 AMS systems) should be invulnerable to missiles.

Also, please explain how limiting the number of mechs that can equip ECM is not a valid way to reduce the number of ECM mechs in the field. (Saying that you've dropped in pug matches against 8 ECM mechs is a stretch, because I've never seen it.)

ECM can also be countered by another ECM, and also nullified by TAG. AMS has no such counter.

So again... Why is AMS worthless?

Edited by Syllogy, 07 December 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[KhanCipher]

Syllogy, on 07 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Please explain the drawbacks of the AMS as it is?

are you saying that ams doesn't use ammo, and that ammo doesn't explode when hit?

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AMS currently shoots down 4-5 missiles per group, which means that a single AMS has a chance to actually shoot down 100% of the missiles fired from mechs with single 5-tube launchers.

are you sure? i've only seen it shoot down maybe 3 missiles out of an entire group of LRMs, and never seem to work with SSRMs.

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Also, please explain how an AMS system shooting down 50% of every volley is a buff, and not a detriment in this case.

like i said i've seen it do near nothing, even before ECM. Actually i stoped bothering to use it in closed beta because the effects weren't noticeable.

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Also, please explain why an Atlas-K (which can equip 2 AMS systems) should be invulnerable to missiles.

and somehow we forgot that it gave up a ballistic and a missile hardpoint to have 2 AMS hardpoints (compared to the AS7-D)

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Also, please explain how limiting the number of mechs that can equip ECM is not a valid way to reduce the number of ECM mechs in the field. (Saying that you've dropped in pug matches against 8 ECM mechs is a stretch, because I've never seen it.)

i played some 8-man last night, the 4 most common models i was seeing was the ones that can equip ECM (remember i said most common, i didn't see a full ecm team yet). So from what i saw yesterday tells me that either ECM needs nerfed, or it needs to be hardcapped at 2 per team max. and this kind of "balancing" works just as well as balancing via making it expensive, it doesn't work because people will still gravitate to the current "meta" which happens to be ECM+SSRM+Gauss+Laser+AC stacking. so now we have a situation that was created by PGI's bad attempt of an ECM drawback which doesn't work.

[Syllogy]

KhanCipher, on 07 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

are you saying that ams doesn't use ammo, and that ammo doesn't explode when hit?

Use case, It keeps all ammo from exploding. Since only 1 ton of AMS ammo will usually get you through a match, toss it in the head and then you won't ever have to worry about it exploding.

If this is the only drawback, it's pretty small.

KhanCipher, on 07 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

are you sure? i've only seen it shoot down maybe 3 missiles out of an entire group of LRMs, and never seem to work with SSRMs.

Yep, I'm sure.

It definitely works with Streaks, but it only shoots down 1 out of a group (Streaks are faster, and are launched from a shorter range, and in many cases, too close for AMS to be used)

KhanCipher, on 07 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

like i said i've seen it do near nothing, even before ECM. Actually i stoped bothering to use it in closed beta because the effects weren't noticeable.

It sounds like you haven't used AMS in a while, equip it and run with it as it is now. You might see a huge difference from your experience in Closed Beta.

KhanCipher, on 07 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

and somehow we forgot that it gave up a ballistic and a missile hardpoint to have 2 AMS hardpoints (compared to the AS7-D)

So giving up 1 Ballistic and 1 Missile hardpoint is a viable excuse to be immune to limitless volleys of LRMs?

KhanCipher, on 07 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

i played some 8-man last night, the 4 most common models i was seeing was the ones that can equip ECM (remember i said most common, i didn't see a full ecm team yet). So from what i saw yesterday tells me that either ECM needs nerfed, or it needs to be hardcapped at 2 per team max. and this kind of "balancing" works just as well as balancing via making it expensive, it doesn't work because people will still gravitate to the current "meta" which happens to be ECM+SSRM+Gauss+Laser+AC stacking. so now we have a situation that was created by PGI's bad attempt of an ECM drawback which doesn't work.

8 Man Drops are vastly different, and much more focused than the typical Public Launches that make up many times more of the active games.

8 Man Drops can create builds suited to specific objectives, situations, and roles where Public games often rely on less focused builds that can cover an entire range of situations.

Try dropping public for a few rounds, you might be surprised.

[KhanCipher]

Syllogy, on 07 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Use case, It keeps all ammo from exploding. Since only 1 ton of AMS ammo will usually get you through a match, toss it in the head and then you won't ever have to worry about it exploding.

If this is the only drawback, it's pretty small.

i forgot the last time i used case on a IS mech in TT or in MWO (unless it was a ammo heavy mech on TT)

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Yep, I'm sure.

It definitely works with Streaks, but it only shoots down 1 out of a group (Streaks are faster, and are launched from a shorter range, and in many cases, too close for AMS to be used)

that's actually kinda my problem AMS should've been the counter to SSRMs not ECM

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It sounds like you haven't used AMS in a while, equip it and run with it as it is now. You might see a huge difference from your experience in Closed Beta.

kinda hard to notice is AMS does something if I dash for cover whenever i see that magic "Missiles Imcoming" on my hud, and no streaks in LOS

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So giving up 1 Ballistic and 1 Missile hardpoint is a viable excuse to be immune to limitless volleys of LRMs?

ok, lame excuse is lame on my part... wasn't really thinking there

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8 Man Drops are vastly different, and much more focused than the typical Public Launches that make up many times more of the active games.

8 Man Drops can create builds suited to specific objectives, situations, and roles where Public games often rely on less focused builds that can cover an entire range of situations.

Try dropping public for a few rounds, you might be surprised.

i pug most of the time and ecm is much easier to manage there than 8-mans, mainly cause there isn't like 5 or so on one team. There was a rare case where it was 3 ecm on the enemy team and... i can't remember if we did have an ecm.

i only took 8-man out for a whirl just to have some competition, not get my face pounded into the dirt, or do a base trade over and over and over...

but my point is that there needs to be some sort of drawback to ecm (besides the limited models that can equip it), and honestly i think that drawback should be being only to field 1 per 4 players.

Edited by KhanCipher, 07 December 2012 - 10:22 AM.