164 replies to this topic

[Tilon]

Psikez, on 07 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Theres no point having a dicussion with you because you've made it quite clear theres no changing your mind.

When nobody can tell me why the ECM should act as an AOE Null Signature System, yeah, you're not going to change my mind. You're completely dodging the issue, which is that ECM is supposed to be a short range jammer of enemy mechs, not an AOE Null Signature System.

Null Signature is powerful. That's why it comes at a significant heat cost.

Currently, ECM is both jamming AND acting as an AOE Null System, with no cost whatsoever.

Yeah, I think that's overpowered, and you've made absolutely no argument to prove me wrong.

All strategies should have drawbacks. In real life, the drawback of ECM is limited range, and the fact that ECM devices give away their position by throwing out a lot of noise from their position.

In current MWO, ECM is both jamming (throwing out noise) AND it is somehow masking its own signature and friendly signatures.

In effect, ECM gets to have it both ways. Jamming and Cloaking are opposites, but for some reason, current ECM gets to do both.

There is absolutely no drawback to ECM at the moment, it's all advantages. For 1.5 tons, it is grossly out of whack.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Drenzul]

Errr, no null sig makes you not appear on IR scan as well, thats why its so powerful. Your pretty much invisible (think predator level cloak) to anyone using heat vision.

[Psikez]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

When nobody can tell me why the ECM should act as an AOE Null Signature System, yeah, you're not going to change my mind. You're completely dodging the issue, which is that ECM is supposed to be a short range jammer of enemy mechs, not an AOE Null Signature System.

Null Signature is powerful. That's why it comes at a significant heat cost.

Currently, ECM is both jamming AND acting as an AOE Null System, with no cost whatsoever.

Yeah, I think that's overpowered, and you've made absolutely no argument to prove me wrong.

"yeah, you're not going to change my mind."

"Yeah, I think that's overpowered, and you've made absolutely no argument to prove me wrong."

Doesn't seem to be much point in putting an argument forward does there? Would you waste in your energy in response to "You're not going to change my mind?"

[Screech]

I love everything about ECM but it does have 2 glaring issues.

1. It is an arms race on ECM, whoever has the most has the advantage. Just make it so you can't over-power a counter by having more ECM mechs. If 1 ECM on your team was able counter 4-8 enemy ECM would lessen effectiveness of ECM heavy groups.

2. ECM has become a balancing issue to help "fix" "broken" chasis. Bad design idea will lead to more problems. I am not sure how this is fixed because the first light mech that can take ECM and Jump Jets will be pretty damn scary.

[Pugastrius]

To answer your questions:

Quote

If you could put ecm on any mech, would you ever not put it on?

Yes, there are a few builds where I honestly struggle to equip my entire load-out which I have become very accustomed to.

Quote

As a thought experiment, what is the max tonnage/crits usage you'd still take ecm?

On my atlas I'd probably equip it if it weighed somewhere in the ballpark of 20 tons? Why?

1) You only need one to get the biggest benefit out of it, that being the opponent can't see any of your team's movements from long distances.

2) The heavier it is the more powerful it is (fewer and fewer people will equip the only counter being another ECM).

3) It provides an enormous benefit to any light mechs you have in the area by preventing SSRMs.

4) If the opponent isn't willing to invest in one, only our side gets to use Long-Range Weaponry.

The thing is wildly broken at this point. The Null-Signature System took up tons of critical slots, generated massive heat, and was still only self only. The current ECM is an AoE version with some added goodies and no drawbacks.

Edited by Pugastrius, 07 December 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Tilon]

Drenzul, on 07 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Errr, no null sig makes you not appear on IR scan as well, thats why its so powerful. Your pretty much invisible (think predator level cloak) to anyone using heat vision.

If the enemy mech appears on your infrared, you should be able to lock your LRMs and fire on it then, since you're outside the ECM's jamming range. That is the issue, and that is why it is being compared to a Null sig system.

Technically you should be able to 'R' target from outside the ECM's range too, but I am willing to concede that the ECM could use a bit of a boost from the TT rules, so I would be willing to go with it preventing R targeting as long as LRMs can still lock.

Quote

The thing is wildly broken at this point. The Null-Signature System took up tons of critical slots and was still only self only. This is AOE and even more powerful.

My point exactly.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[8RoundsRapid]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

There is no precedent whatsoever for direct fire LRMs being countered by ECM in Battletech.

Although I am not horribly offended by the current implementation of ECM in this game, I do have to admit that the total null signature thing seems a bit... much. ECM is really only supposed to jam electronic devices such as artemis, BAP, NARC, and C3/C3i. Tag should still work, and you should still be able to target a mech with your onboard targeting system. Advanced targeting computers should also be unaffected by ECM.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that the current implementation will get toned down a bit. I absolutely DO NOT agree that it is OP currently, but I would agree that it does a little more than it should, probably. Maybe.

[Chacatumbi]

it is garbage that they made ECM not able to be equiped by all. Hell, at least all light mechs them being scouts and all. Makes jenners obsolete What is even more of a slap to the face is that not a single founders mech gets ECM. Nickel and dime... this game's moto.

[8RoundsRapid]

Chacatumbi, on 07 December 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

it is garbage that they made ECM not able to be equiped by all. Hell, at least all light mechs them being scouts and all. Makes jenners obsolete What is even more of a slap to the face is that not a single founders mech gets ECM. Nickel and dime... this game's moto.

Also if I was a betting man, I'd bet that the current mechs/variants that can utilize ECM won't be the only ones.

How is the addition of ECM a slap in your face? I think you're being dramatic.

[Solis Obscuri]

STRONG LIKE BEAR, on 07 December 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

For pugs by myself? Of course not.

[Helbourne]

xDark, on 07 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

I do just as well in ECM mechs as I do in non-ECM mechs. ECM is nice to have, but it is NOT essential in any way - you just have to change the way you play.

Adapt or die. Also L2P.

So what your saying is, screw the Battletech/Mechwarrior lore that this game is based off of. ECM currently does too much compared to the lore and TT rules which once again this ENTIRE game is based off of. Until things change your correct, people got to figure out a way to play around this extreme oversite on how to implament such a device.

I cannot wait to see people change their tunes about ECM or other such devices once Clan tech is put in to the game. Now that will be a riot. Talk about OP by comparison.

[Biglead]

Timelordwho, on 07 December 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

If 1.5t of ecm weight is hampering your ability to blow up a commando, you might want to rethink what you are doing.

You might want to rethink what you're talking about because what I said implies it never has inhibited my abilities to feed on Commandos. ECM, isn't an I win button. It's simply the next crutch that the mass of worthlesses will use to wipe their blurry vision from the tears they shed when PGI took away their last FOTM crutch.

Edited by Biglead, 07 December 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Tilon]

8RoundsRapid, on 07 December 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

I absolutely DO NOT agree that it is OP currently, but I would agree that it does a little more than it should, probably. Maybe.

How is an AOE Null Signature System with no downsides not OP?
How is a 1.5 ton system that shuts down an entire class of weapons from any range not OP?

Good game balance...balances things. Everything should have a downside.

Downside of LRMs? Can't be used at short range. The devs decided that wasn't enough, so they added in a warning message to make it easier for people to take cover.

Downside of ECM is supposed to be its short range. But instead, it is effective at both short and long range.

A device cannot jam and cloak simultaneously. The two are opposites.

Currently the downside of ECM seems to be 'eventually, few will carry LRMs and so the weapon it disables won't be on the field'.

Quote

Doesn't seem to be much point in putting an argument forward does there? Would you waste in your energy in response to "You're not going to change my mind?"

See, here's the difference: You are taking ECM's side because you like it.

I am more concerned with game balance as a whole. Since you aren't bothering to discuss balance, you won't change my mind.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Timelordwho]

Ok, what if ECM acted as an activated pulse, which scrambled locks/detection within 180m for 1 sec, for 5 heat, with a 4 sec cooldown, or could go into counter mode to disrupt ECM systems.

Then have a separate heavy ECM system, which weight 6 tons that had the 'cloaking field' effect that current ECM offered, and didn't have the disrupt option.

Have Heavy ECM only availiable to certain chassis, and have light ECM available to more chassis, (And ravens might have the option to take both, as they are sorta a specialist ECM mech)

Clan ECM would take 1 and 4 tons respectively.

[STRONG LIKE BEAR]

Why do you keep bringing up Null Signature System?

You can still see mechs' heat signature by pressing "H"

Instead try actually "scouting" (hint : pressing "R" doesn't equal "scouting")

[Streeter]

The Cheese, on 07 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

How many times are you going to post that?

I think he is proud of that damage in a 100 ton atlas. I think I should get on to screen caps both for E-peen status but also to show that now a 35 ton Raven can do well over 1000 damage a round thanks pretty much only from the ECM buff which is pretty solid evidence that the ECM balance is a bit off.

[8RoundsRapid]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

How is an AOE Null Signature System with no downsides not OP?

Because I know how to pilot my mech and play the game. All your weapons still work, the mechs that have ECM can be destroyed, and I am also allowed to use ECM if I want.

Just because you don't like how it's currently implemented, doesn't make it OP.

That being said, I do believe that ECM should not inhibit your ability to target an enemy mech. If you wanted to do it like TT, that'd be the way to go.

BUT

I still think the game is fun w/ ECM as it is.

[Timelordwho]

STRONG LIKE BEAR, on 07 December 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Why do you keep bringing up Null Signature System?

You can still see mechs' heat signature by pressing "H"

Instead try actually "scouting" (hint : pressing "R" doesn't equal "scouting")

Yeah, no, I know how to shoot with direct fire weapons.

LRMs, SSRMS aren't those. I use both types of weapon systems.

[Khobai]

Quote

its a major factor on the game but with the coming TAG range increase

TAG countering ECM is complete nonsense. Not gonna happen.

[Ferc Polo]

Of course people will adapt. That's just silly to suggest as a solution when it's made entire weapon types stupid to use.

There's no good reason to take LRMs to an 8 man when you could just run a direct fire instead. Of COURSE there are still matches where LRMs work, and YES you can still use them...but they are now SO EASILY COUNTERED that you are ASKING to lose and putting yourself at a direct disadvantage by running them.