36 replies to this topic

[Capt Cole 117]

Right now theres no information warfare, only ecm spam.

[AlexWildeagle]

Only way you should make any changes to ECM is first make changes to load outs.

No more LRM boats or steakcats, like TT. Then you can make ECM like TT.

[Tachykard]

Cant believe how they ruined the balance of the game with 1 single piece of equip. If they dont make a big change on ecm or better patch it out, game is dead cause of balancing problems. If you just wanna play a game with randoms and not a clan 8vs8 you cant counter ecm effectively. The only way right now is to also only play ecm mechs so that your team has atleast 2 better 3 ecm mechs to counter. Other way is to give ecm to every mech then its ok, but thats the same effect like patching it out of the game. Please do something against ecm and dont let it ruin this good game.

[Willie Sauerland]

Tachykard, on 11 December 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

Cant believe how they ruined the balance of the game with 1 single piece of equip. If they dont make a big change on ecm or better patch it out, game is dead cause of balancing problems. If you just wanna play a game with randoms and not a clan 8vs8 you cant counter ecm effectively. The only way right now is to also only play ecm mechs so that your team has atleast 2 better 3 ecm mechs to counter. Other way is to give ecm to every mech then its ok, but thats the same effect like patching it out of the game. Please do something against ecm and dont let it ruin this good game.

I've told you a million times I don't exaggerate...

So much doom and gloom. This very same (un)constructive argument has been said about every supposed over-powered contraption introduced into this game. Let me see if I can remember some of them:

Gaus Rifles are OP - check
LRMs are OP - check
SSRM2 are OP - check
Artemis is OP - check

In other words - add something constructive. Leave the doom and gloom (game is still here you know - and you will be too so no need to try and drop the mood somehow you Debbie Downer). If you can't do either, then I think we will all be happy with you not posting.

Oh, by the way - ECM is not the only counter to ECM (though it is built as a counter to itself). Work as a team. Use Tag. Direct fire with LRMs. Use infrared and blast enemies at distance with ballistics/energy. Use superior tactics. Have a strategy. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Thanks for your time

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 11 December 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Tachykard]

Sry Willie but this is crap what you said. Most times i play with randoms (no 8vs8 clan match etc.) so you dont have the chance to effectively counter ecm with teamwork. Second is tag doesnt work that good. And last is that before ecm coming into the game balancing was fine. And if you pro ever played with a jenner against an ecm commando with 3 streaks you know what i mean with balancing. Just try to kill him with your energy weapons and you will see how it doesnt work.....

Edited by Tachykard, 11 December 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Tachykard, on 11 December 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Sry Willie but this is crap what you said.

No apologies needed. We can agree to disagree and still be civil about it.

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Most times i play with randoms (no 8vs8 clan match etc.) so you dont have the chance to effectively counter ecm with teamwork.

I find most randoms will follow a plan if given one. I also find that there is less ECM in the randoms than there is in the 8v8 (if you haven't run up against 6 ECM Atlas and 2 ECM Raven teams, you're really missing out...) so this is certainly able to be countered. Again there are ways to do this. As a Jenner pilot, I'm sure you have lasers (hopefully medium, but small will also work). ECM doesn't counter those...

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Second is tag doesnt work that good.

If a team has an LRM and a TAG, the LRM boat will be able to lock onto the mech and fire. TAG doesn't do damage at all nor does it "cancel" ECM. It just lets the team see the mech via the targeting computers through the ECM shield.

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And last is that before ecm coming into the game balancing was fine.

This is debatable. Balance has always been an issue even all the way back in closed beta. You thought it was fine, and that was ok, but others would disagree with you. Balance is in the eye of the beholder. You cannot possibly make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time.

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And if you pro ever played with a jenner against an ecm commando with 3 streaks you know what i mean with balancing. Just try to kill him with your energy weapons and you will see how it doesnt work.....

Commandos have paper thin armor. You should be able to hit him with your lasers (again, mediums are preferable but smalls will work too). Yes, he has streaks, but if you stay behind him, he won't be able to hit you. Use cover. Jump over him (one of my personal favorite tactics) and shoot him while jumping and dodge behind cover again. Get a buddy to help you. Lead him to a buddy.

So many things which can be done in this situation. All you need to do is be creative or watch somebody else play and learn some tricks.

I have killed many commandos using every weapon type available. I have killed them in lights all the way up to assaults. With patience and practice you can do it too. Play to YOUR advantages - not to theirs. This, my friend, is strategy. You force them to play on your terms and you will win, every time (barring the lucky shot of course).

[Tachykard]

Willie Sauerland, on 11 December 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Commandos have paper thin armor. You should be able to hit him with your lasers (again, mediums are preferable but smalls will work too). Yes, he has streaks, but if you stay behind him, he won't be able to hit you. Use cover. Jump over him (one of my personal favorite tactics) and shoot him while jumping and dodge behind cover again. Get a buddy to help you. Lead him to a buddy.

So many things which can be done in this situation. All you need to do is be creative or watch somebody else play and learn some tricks.

I have killed many commandos using every weapon type available. I have killed them in lights all the way up to assaults. With patience and practice you can do it too. Play to YOUR advantages - not to theirs. This, my friend, is strategy. You force them to play on your terms and you will win, every time (barring the lucky shot of course).

Sry but if you fly over them they can hit you easily with the streaks and he can turn around as fast as you do so u cant stay behind him all the time...
And dont tell me the thing with pratice.. believe me i do about 400 - 500 damage per round with my jenner up to max over 1100 so i know how to use his weapons... but a good pilot with ecm commando and 3 streaks is the running death for all light mechs... nothing to do with aiming. And in additon if you got a pack of them for example 2 ecm commandos and 1 ecm raven they hunt down most of your mechs if u dont have enough ecm mechs on your side to counter their ecm.

Edited by Tachykard, 11 December 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Tachykard, on 11 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Sry but if you fly over them they can hit you easily with the streaks and he can turn around as fast as you do so u cant stay behind him all the time...
And dont tell me the thing with pratice.. believe me i do about 400 - 500 damage per round with my jenner up to max over 1100 so i know how to use his weapons... but a good pilot with ecm commando and 3 streaks is the running death for all light mechs... nothing to do with aiming. And in additon if you got a pack of them for example 2 ecm commandos and 1 ecm raven they hunt down most of your mechs if u dont have enough ecm mechs on your side to counter their ecm.

This is a problem with the PUG matches you are in and not a problem of the equipment itself. Play in some premades and you will notice a difference. The ability to work with a team is amazing and then you will find you are not being hunted by three other lights.

As for the jumping - you have to do it before he can get a lock. There is some timing involved but it is certainly possible. Obviously, this will be more difficult on maps such as Caustic (an LRM boat's wet dream) but it is still possible - even if you are using a friend as the cover. I've done that plenty of times too...

[Kreisel]

Please keep it civil guys, I know this is a heated issue that a lot of players feel a great deal of frustration about. But lets try and keep it constructive.

I'm seeing a trend that ECM is more of a problem in random groups than in premades (not that it's not being taken almost abusively advantage of in premades, but that there are more effective ways to counter it with teamwork) Part of the inherent problem with the rock/paper/scissors of LRM and streaks/ECM/More ECM/TAG is it's largely dependent on group makeup.
Beyond just having less communication and less teamwork in PUG's (which is further hampered by ECM removing the one automatic form of communication... targeting and seeing where people are on the minimap) you also don't know what kind of makeup you team will include until your in the thick of it.

LRM's and streaks have fallen out of heavy use since you never know before the match starts if your going to be able to fire that weapon or not due to the make up of ECM. LRM's especially have become rare in PUGs, since it's difficult to reliably TAG for yourself in a Missiles support mech, and you never know if your going to get enough ECM or TAG on your team to get a lock. I started taking TAG for a while... but then... for several games in a row, there was no one with LRM's to TAG for, so it was a wasted ton and hardpoint. The result has been the Catapults are going back to SRM6 or Large Laser builds depending on the variant, There are a lot more matches where over half the team are circda and lights, about every other match you go between no ECM on the other team to 2-3 ECM on the other team, it is rare to find any LRM support fire, and sniper builds have dropped off as well in favor of brawlers, since the Gauss and AC2 both became weaker the PPC isn't viable at the same time it became essayer to sneak up on the other team. Base rushes on both sides are really common, with the winner of the match being the team that commits to running their faster, and neither side hardly sees anyone from the other team.

Willie, I'd like to point out... that one your major suggested tactics for dealing with an ECM streak commando was... bring him to a friend and if he is running ECM and you don't have any, he is likely to be just as or more aware of where your PUG teammates are than you are, since he can see them on the minimap, but you can't.

[Willie Sauerland]

Kreisel, on 11 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Willie, I'd like to point out... that one your major suggested tactics for dealing with an ECM streak commando was... bring him to a friend and if he is running ECM and you don't have any, he is likely to be just as or more aware of where your PUG teammates are than you are, since he can see them on the minimap, but you can't.

Since this was advice to a Jenner pilot I will respond to your statement concerning this.

My experience is, if I am scouting out in front (which is where a Jenner is typically found), I know my team must be behind me. This is not dissimilar to baiting a team with a fast light to try and pull the opposing team into chasing the light. Since I know they are behind me (even if I can't see them on my mini-map) I at least know which direction to run. Of course, they might be behind me and to the left (or right) but they are still behind me. Again, the only place where it would be difficult to break a Commando's streak lock would be on Caustic where there is no cover, however it can be done in any other map we have fairly easily. Getting back to my teammates should not be a dramatic issue. Given the small map sizes, you can pretty much see shots or LRM fire going back the direction you came from - there you will find members of your team...

Obviously, if I am not a light scout, then I shouldn't be that far from the rest of the team anyway. Then finding my nearest team member is only a look in the right or left direction. And to be honest, if you are larger than a light, you should probably be able to peel back the armor on that Commando pretty much by yourself.

[Hammer RLG]

i hope to find the game sticking to TT/canon as much as possible. while translating to a real time game vs turn based leads to some compromises, things should not go to far outside of the established (?) expectations. In the case of this game it is to function like TT as much as possible. previous incarnations of real time mechy games did so, so we can only hope that this game does so as well.

that said, i hope ECM gets brought back to TT. i do not know all the specific effects of the current incarnation of ECM, but the below is my para-phrase of the master rules.

specifically TAG should not be effected by ECM. TAG is a laser. if lasers were effected then ECM mechs would not be able to be hit by damage inducing laser weapons either.

artemis bonus, active probe, narc homing bonus, C3 connections should be lost within the ECM bubble (180 meters around the ECM mech).

no friendly communications should be cut off by ECM at all. i mean, we do this now in this day and age. if you did not know, for example, convoys carry radio jamming equipment that stop all radio signals within a particular range, EXCEPT friendly radio communications. i would expect our technology to not lose this capability in the future, sci fi or not.

[Zyllos]

Honestly, the implementation of ECM seems ok. Just the numbers seem off.

- Make 1 Counter ECM counter all Disrupt ECM in range. I personally think making 1 Counter ECM work against all Disrupt ECM a big one because then it isn't always about fielding more ECMs, but instead using your Disrupt ECM to scout and not run into another equipped ECM mech to be countered and open for locking weaponry. This also doesn't make the Atlas D-DC team (4+ ECMs) just invincible against lock-on weapons because your team didn't decide to take 5+ other ECM mechs. This is really a way to give a reason for a team to take mechs other than ECM but to take at least 1 ECM mech for disruption.

- Make ECM reduce sensor range by 50%, not 75%. ECM is ment for scouting, not keeping certain mechs locked out of firing. Even at 400m sensor range, LRM users will only have 220m worth of workable distance to lock on with missiles while SSRMs will only have 90m.

- Let the BAP display some indication that an ECM equipped mech is within normal sensor range (according to Sarna saying BAP is jammed by ECM but indication is notified). Maybe give BAP users "pings" (kinda like how Thermal Mode shows the ping sweep, which seems like to me PGI is already testing out) so they can spot where ECM mechs are physically at. Once teams start to only take 1 or 2 ECMs, having BAP which gives pings to physical locations could be used to detect where ECM mechs are located at so you could chase the ECM mechs and destroy them with direct fire weapons. Then you might see teams start to take no ECM and work together with BAP users to counter ECM.

- As many have said, fix the issues with hit detection. This will really help out in the department of having light mechs survive a disproportional amount of fire according to their weight. But this is obvious, just extremely important and I am sure PGI is working on.

[Peiper]

Hammer RLG and Zyllos: well written. +1 to both.

[Hammer RLG]

thx Peiper!

i also want to add, no ECCM and multiple ECMs shoudl not stack. does not exist in TT/canon, and if ECM is implemented properly no need for it. please just try to get it as close to Master Rules as possible, given the transformation into real time.

and as Zyllos wrote, BAP should display the area of ECM coverage (the bubble).

Edited by Hammer RLG, 12 December 2012 - 08:56 PM.

[Talys]

Just want to support the idea that ECCM should counter any ECM in it's field, not just one.

[Hammer RLG]

well, yes if the devs feel they MUST keep ECCM, then it should operate like that. i think perhaps a better idea would be to allow ECCM to work only on/for the mech it is installed in. while this may not be popular, from a realistic point of view it makes the most sense. this ECCM mech would be able to 'burn through' the ECM bubble with its more powerful sensor array and descrambling equipment. if we have to keep this piece of equipment, it should be separate. maybe it is an advanced/improved active probe. now this one mech can definitely pass off its targeting information to others.

[Elkarlo]

In my Opinion the Biggest Problem of the ECM is that it prevent fighting at all.

No Fighting Means: No Fun in big Mecha Game this mean: Death of MWO.

Pug Players may know it as Base Race Game...
the nature of ECM allows it and i made a suggestion to slow the Base Race game down so
that we don't have 50% of the Games Base Races. None of the Suggestions here will prevent a Base Race..
As the Nature of an ECM IS to be stealthy and covered.

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/