13 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

So, how long have we heard the cry, "Streaks are OP! ECM is the only thing keeping streakcats from single-handedly killing me and everyone else on my team!"?

I just got dropped into a PUG with no ECM against a premade with 2 ecm mechs and 2 streakcats. I didn't have a hope in hell of actually killing the ECM mechs (a Cicada and a Raven), so I went after the streakcats.

They ganged up on me, focused and chain firing, and I wasn't fast enough to maneuver around them, so I just closed and headshotted them at point-blank range; 1-shot for one, I had to take 2 shots on the other because the first shot lagged wide and only tore off an ear.

I came out with minimal damage; they had gotten probably ~20 launches against me, call it 100 damage, but by torso twisting, it was spread out over my whole mech, mostly on the ears, though, since I came at them twisted almost entirely sideways until I turned to shoot.

Then the ECM mechs killed me. I actually had 2 AC/20 round blow up on one of them, but the server didn't register the hit, so I was stuck slashing at them with lasers, which is like trying to chop down a tree with a machete.

So, we've got this strange balance: AC>streakcats>non-ECM lights>AC (a nice circle); 2 streakcats have a rough time against a guncat, 2 Jenners might be able to take a streakcat, and 2 guncats have a slight chance of hitting a Jenner. But then ECM lights>almost everything else; there's not really a circle, there.

The same people who were whinging about streakcats are now telling us that ECM is "fine;" a 1.5-ton, 2-slot, no heat universal jamming device. That's the sort of thing that was always relegated to cheat codes in other games.

Or, did you ever hear a round start off with the comment, "Uh-oh, we don't have any streakcats, might as well just power down now!"?

[J4ckInthebox]

I fail to see how the ECM's helped the lights killing you.

You killed 2 streak cats in a rather brillant way, and got outmaneuvered by two light mechs. seems a fair and good fight to me.

The real problem is the hit registration system.

Edited by J4ckInthebox, 09 December 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

This is what we call random chance, casinos thrive on it. But wait, casinos know how to stack the deck in their favor. Much like some teams do, but since there is no one controlling group that has a sure thing we come to the next point.

Imperfect balance:

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=e31OSVZF77w

Based on an ever evolving game that introduces new elements this imperfect balance will always be present. What is "overpowering" now is not going to be a month from now. Streakcats were considered ridiculously overpowered but seem to not be now aren't as much.

Your circle is not including the amount of heavy AC/Laser builds that are popping up and do not rely on targeting. Strengthened by a team that communicates.

Circle closed, the game is back to imperfect balance.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 09 December 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Sounds like a mix of your good piloting up against some bad streak cats.

All ECM does is remove targeting. It did not help them kill you, or effect anything else, it just removed your ability to use the "R" key.

[Codejack]

J4ckInthebox, on 09 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I fail to see how the ECM's helped the lights killing you.

It didn't.

J4ckInthebox, on 09 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

You killed 2 streak cats in a rather brillant way,

Well, strange as it sounds to reject praise instead of criticism, but my mech was just loaded out better for killing them than theirs were for killing me. Lack of skill on my part could have turned the result, but they did everything right.

J4ckInthebox, on 09 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

and got outmaneuvered by two light mechs. seems a fair and good fight to me.

Well, yes and no. Absolutely, light mechs should have torn my mech up. That's what they are designed to do. But what was I supposed to load to counter them? Lasers? Nope. AC? Nope? Gauss? Ha!

No, the counter is still the streakcat, but you have to hope that you have as much or more ECM than your opponents.

That was streakcats' role in the game; killing fast lights that were too hard to hit with anything else. The replacement is a Commando with half the firepower, but the ECM that you need to let them work, and frankly, that gets boring. Streakcats had counters other than more streakcats; ECM has no counter other than more ECM.

J4ckInthebox, on 09 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

The real problem is the hit registration system.

Absolutely, but that still doesn't make lasers and ACs the optimal weapons to use against scouts.

Roughneck45, on 09 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Sounds like a mix of your good piloting up against some bad streak cats.

Of course! There's no way I beat the almighty streakcat without ECM unless they were crappy players, right?

No, they did everything right, they just didn't have the ability to concentrate fire as effectively as I could.

You see, I play streakcats, so I know their weaknesses. I play AC- and Gauss-cats and phracts, laser hunchies, LRM-boats, jump-jet scouts, ECM brawlers, and everything else that I can think of or run into. I do that so I will know how to counter them when I do run into them, and frankly, the streakcat is WAY down the list of mechs that I hate to run into.

Let me put it in the simplest possible terms: Any mech that cannot either evade or kill a streakcat is just poorly built.

Roughneck45, on 09 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

All ECM does is remove targeting. It did not help them kill you, or effect anything else, it just removed your ability to use the "R" key.

It discourages me from running the mech that can kill their mechs.

Let's use an analogy; would light mechs be as good at killing heavy and assault mechs if there were some device that the larger mechs could carry that prevented the light mech from shooting them from the back or sides? That's what they do, how they compensate for their lighter armor and less weapons: Speed and agility, to get around where the armor is weak and the enemy can't shoot back.

Well, that's what ECM did against LRMs and SSRMs; 1-on-1, a missile boat against any ECM enemy is at a serious disadvantage.

[Stone Wall]

I like MWO.

[deputydog]

The counter for a light with ecm is another light with ecm. Or a medium with lots of pulse and speed. Or tagging it and desting it with lrms from a distance.
Its when ecm lights with stks get up close and start eh circle that it can be hard but only if you are alone. If people stick together lights die.

I run a rvn-3l and just go hunt the other ecm lights each match. If I can kill them all then i turn on the lrm mechs and its usually a win. If I get killed then their lights do the same to my team. The game has come down to light v light ftw.

[Smeghead87]

So what's your point OP?

[KuruptU4Fun]

He has more posts including QQ'ing about Streak cats and ECM. I think he's going for a medal or a moderator post.

[Franchi]

It all comes down to knockdowns, when we had knockdowns they served to re-sink the hit boxes largely solving the lag shield that makes lights so ridicules, knockdowns were removed lights became a complete joke and streak cats came out in force because they could reliably hit lights regardless of lag shield.

Streak cats were never in any way OP.

Quote

Well, strange as it sounds to reject praise instead of criticism, but my mech was just loaded out better for killing them than theirs were for killing me. Lack of skill on my part could have turned the result, but they did everything right.

If they did everything right they would have slaughtered you, aiming vertically with a cat is a ***** they should have known that and used their JJ's and terrain to school you. You trounced some terrible cats who were crutching on a 4 man with two ECM lights.

Edited by Franchi, 09 December 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Codejack]

Franchi, on 09 December 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

If they did everything right they would have slaughtered you, aiming vertically with a cat is a ***** they should have known that and used their JJ's and terrain to school you.

The first one didn't have time to jumpjet. The second one tried it after my first shot didn't kill him, but I held fire until he hit the ground, when he would be stopped for a moment and I could get a clean cockpit shot.

Franchi, on 09 December 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

You trounced some terrible cats who were crutching on a 4 man with two ECM lights.

Again, they did everything right, from flanking me right off the bat, concentrating fire, chain-firing, the 2nd guy tried to jump-jet to throw me off; they couldn't put 40 damage in one spot, though, and I could.

I made this post because it is the exception that proves the rule: "The best swordsman in the world does not fear the second-best swordsman; he fears the worst swordsman, because he never know what the fool is going to do."

Moreover, they had designed their entire 4-man team around the concept of killing 1 particular type of mech that is over-represented currently. Were people running 4-man groups loaded out with the sole purpose of killing streakcats?

[Franchi]

Codejack, on 09 December 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

The first one didn't have time to jumpjet. The second one tried it after my first shot didn't kill him, but I held fire until he hit the ground, when he would be stopped for a moment and I could get a clean cockpit shot.




Again, they did everything right, from flanking me right off the bat, concentrating fire, chain-firing, the 2nd guy tried to jump-jet to throw me off; they couldn't put 40 damage in one spot, though, and I could.

I made this post because it is the exception that proves the rule: "The best swordsman in the world does not fear the second-best swordsman; he fears the worst swordsman, because he never know what the fool is going to do."

Moreover, they had designed their entire 4-man team around the concept of killing 1 particular type of mech that is over-represented currently. Were people running 4-man groups loaded out with the sole purpose of killing streakcats?

Let me repeat myself, they did not do everything right.

A group of 4 mechs, two of them scouts, let you get the drop on them.

You miss the point you don't just JJ until they run out, you JJ onto/behind terrain and then as the AC20/Gaussapult backs up to get his shot you JJ towards him, when they run out of fuel on the second jump the AC20/Gaussapult is dead. Unless you fail at feathering but that gets us back to bad pilots were bad.

I don't deny that seeing a 4 man groups designed to hunt lights is an indication that lights are over the top, then again back when streakcats where showing up everywhere I pointed out that they were a REACTION to lights being the hardest thing to kill.

trust me on this, Ive got about 1,000,000 Exp across all the catapults they are kinda my thing, I know how to drive them and how to kill them.

Edited by Franchi, 09 December 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[Codejack]

Franchi, on 09 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Let me repeat myself, they did not do everything right.

A group of 4 mechs, two of them scouts, let you get the drop on them.

They cornered me by our base at the low end of river city.

Franchi, on 09 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

You miss the point you don't just JJ until they run out, you JJ onto/behind terrain

Again, yea, he tried that; it doesn't work so well when the building you're next to is a dome.

Franchi, on 09 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

and then as the AC20/Gaussapult backs up to get his shot you

...then you're fighting a crappy guncat pilot.

Franchi, on 09 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

JJ towards him, when they run out of fuel on the second jump the AC20/Gaussapult is dead.

I'm sorry? How many volleys did you get off?! Unless they're just standing there not twisting and letting your shoot straight at them, that's not going to be enough to kill a decently-armored Catapult.

Franchi, on 09 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Unless you fail at feathering but that gets us back to bad pilots were bad.

I think we have different standards.

[Rex Budman]

J4ckInthebox, on 09 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I fail to see how the ECM's helped the lights killing you.

You killed 2 streak cats in a rather brillant way, and got outmaneuvered by two light mechs. seems a fair and good fight to me.

The real problem is the hit registration system.

More like over lag shield...

Why do people leave the lights alone? Because they are way too hard to fight. Anticipating variable lag and leading gets old after a while. Especially when you are having to Aim South to hit north...