31 replies to this topic

[SpiralRazor]

"If you ever look at a choice and say, "Obviously everyone should take this," or "I would never take this," there's probably something wrong with how they've been balanced. "

-Obsidian Entertainment's Josh Sawyer and Feargus Urquhart.



And this is where we are at now with ECM. Not just ECM though, but ECM is the main culprit and the most identifiable offender currently. IE, every mech that can run ECM, runs ECM, and every mech that cant run it, wishes they could. Every competitive 8 man runs as many as they can.

Or do you just think those two guys dont know what they are talking about?

[Khobai]

It's game design 101. If youre going to give players different options then every option needs to be equally viable.

Right now taking a variant with ECM is not equally viable to not taking a variant without ECM, so theres no reason not to take a variant with ECM.

Edited by Khobai, 09 December 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[cmopatrick]

well, i disagree with your use of the original quote, because i do not believe ECM is op. do i have it on my 3L, yes. have i dropped with the 3L much lately? No, i'm working on my jenny levels in this profile and don't have enough cbills in the other to have a 3L yet.

are there problems with ECM and the current netcode? sure seems like, but that is not the ECM (just like a number of other things are/were not). i drop mostly pug these days, just because my time is usually tight, so don't blame my opinion on winning in a team... i lose as many as i win these days. so? we play on tiny maps where tactical thinking is limited... how does something that introduces more complexity hurt the game? if anything, i have had a bit more fun since it was added (and again, my 3L on this profile is already in the Master slot and i can not afford one in my other profile) so i don't see the grief.

perhaps i should ask what you run... what chassis and loadouts? what do you feel ECM breaks so badly that you are now unable to have fun when it is around? is this about lag (i can understand that), or a favorite weapon (not so understanding), or your k/d ratio (i am afraid i could care less about that)?

i guess i have read enough posts in the last few months that state as fact things that i have not seen... perhaps i'm just not competitive enough or too much a BT canon fanboy (or whatever some folks call me)... so i welcome a honest answer and will consider it in the spirit offered (though flames, i will ignore).

(edit for spelling)

Edited by cmopatrick, 09 December 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[Khobai]

Anyone who pilots lights shouldnt get an opinion on ECM since lights benefit from ECM the most and theres no reason for a light pilot to want ECM nerfed.

[Odins Fist]

It's not my fault if someone does "NOT" know how to outfit their Mech...
Their poor judgement, or bad luck, "NOT" mine...

[cmopatrick]

Khobai, on 09 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Anyone who pilots lights shouldnt get an opinion on ECM since lights benefit from ECM the most and theres no reason for a light pilot to want ECM nerfed.

no offense, sir, but there are only two lights that run ECM, the 3L and one of the commandos (i don't run them and off the top of my head can't name the variant they have that does).

everything else would be solved by making lights fall down if they plow into something at 100+ kph; try hitting something solid with a car at 100kph (about 60mph)... much less hitting it with something that weighs 70,000 pounds. if they fix the problem with lights being immune to bad piloting and also clamp the netcode issues down so non-locking weapons hit what they shoot at there will be no need to disparage a class as if you were not well (much less fully) informed on what you assert.

[SpiralRazor]

"Do i have it on my 3L, yes. have i dropped with the 3L much lately? No, i'm working on my jenny levels in this profile and don't have enough cbills in the other to have a 3L yet."


Your whole post is invalidated in that case.. You have it, rather then not, on a mech that can equip it, just like everyone else.

Just because your not dropping with it because your working on something else doesnt offer any counter argument at all.

Btw, you cant disagree with the usage of the original quote, it simply is. You can see the effect quite easily and as you point out, you have one yourself.

And to answer your question, i have run everything in this game, literally everything. Every chassis, every weapon and combination of weapons.
\

Odins Fist, on 09 December 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

It's not my fault if someone does "NOT" know how to outfit their Mech...
Their poor judgement, or bad luck, "NOT" mine...

Odins Fist, on 09 December 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

It's not my fault if someone does "NOT" know how to outfit their Mech...
Their poor judgement, or bad luck, "NOT" mine...

Umm....what?

Edited by SpiralRazor, 09 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Moot point on the 18th because there will be 10 different reasons to take a Stalker over an AS7-D-DC. 4 of them are missile hardpoints. The other 6 are laser hardpoints.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 09 December 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Odins Fist]

SpiralRazor, on 09 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Umm....what?

.
What do you mean "Umm.....what?"...??
.
I will quote you... "If you ever look at a choice and say, "Obviously everyone should take this," or "I would never take this," there's probably something wrong with how they've been balanced."
.
.
Loadout/Items/Outfitting... What a person puts on their Mech..

Edited by Odins Fist, 09 December 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Nightcrept]

SpiralRazor, on 09 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

"If you ever look at a choice and say, "Obviously everyone should take this," or "I would never take this," there's probably something wrong with how they've been balanced. "

-Obsidian Entertainment's Josh Sawyer and Feargus Urquhart.



And this is where we are at now with ECM. Not just ECM though, but ECM is the main culprit and the most identifiable offender currently. IE, every mech that can run ECM, runs ECM, and every mech that cant run it, wishes they could. Every competitive 8 man runs as many as they can.

Or do you just think those two guys dont know what they are talking about?

Wonderful quote. The point couldn't have been made simpler.

Currently ssrm's and ecm fit in that category.

Lrms imo had just been properly balanced.


ECM can be left as is if you have a suitable counter and I am not referring to something that takes up a weapons slot like tag or requires another player running support for you.

1.Simply make bap counter the area affect of ecm for the mech carrying the ecm while leaving the ecm mech invisible. If the mech carrying the bap is in the ecm bubble do not allow targetting data sharing.
2.Make the matchmaker in pug matches balance for ecms.

That would work to counter balance ecm fairly well as far as I am concerned fairly well.



Ssrm's.
1.Allow ecm to prevent lock withint ecm field but allow bap to counter except on the ecm mech itself.
2.Allow ssrm's to dumb fire.
3.Double ssrm reload times compared to their equivilent srm cousins. .
4.Make ssrms hit randomly all over the enemy mech.

I know some people disagree with my extrended reload times but let me explain my reasoning.

You still get the main benefit of the homing function of the ssrm's which makes them desirable for hitting faster targets and guaranteed damage.

Srms's become more desirable if you can aim with them because you can fire them more often giving them a higher potential damage.


So ssrm's have a guaranteed damage but srms have a higher potential damage.

Both instantly become desirable for different purposes and balanced.

Edited by Nightcrept, 09 December 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Vlad Ward, on 09 December 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Moot point on the 18th because there will be 10 different reasons to take a Stalker over an AS7-D-DC. 4 of them are missile hardpoints. The other 6 are laser hardpoints.

Nopes...because ECM, if not changed, will still trump hardpoints on an 85 ton mech.....ECM will render those Missiles mostly useless...and we already have a laser boat awesome....5 tons will laser boat a little more but yeah, ive seen and done that already.

Odins Fist, on 09 December 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

.
What do you mean "Umm.....what?"...??
.
I will quote you... "If you ever look at a choice and say, "Obviously everyone should take this," or "I would never take this," there's probably something wrong with how they've been balanced."
.
.
Loadout/Items/Outfitting... What a person puts on their Mech..

Man, i still dont have any idea what youre talking about. I dont think you particularly get what they were trying to convey either.

[Vlad Ward]

I don't know, man. An Assault Mech with 4x SRM6 and 6x ML sounds pretty scary.

Let's see, at 85 tons with Endo Steel, you're looking at 4.25 tons of Internals.
Add on 16 tons for Quad Arty SRM6's with 4 tons ammo and 6 tons for MLs and you're at 30.25 tons out of 85.

Assume then it's going to run about 520~ points of armor (over the 80 ton Awesome's 496) and that's 16.25 tons there.

That brings your total to 46.5 tons before the Engine and Heat sinks.

A standard 300 weighs 25 tons and would bring an 85 ton Stalker up to 61.5kph with Speed Tweak, the same speed as a tweaked Atlas.

That leaves an extra 8.5 tons for more DHS, AMS, CASE, or whatever else you want to throw on it.

Adjust speed and total heat capacity as needed. Bam. I'd use that over a D-DC.

[Nightcrept]

Vlad Ward, on 09 December 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

I don't know, man. An Assault Mech with 4x SRM6 and 6x ML sounds pretty scary.

Let's see, at 85 tons with Endo Steel, you're looking at 4.25 tons of Internals.
Add on 16 tons for Quad Arty SRM6's with 4 tons ammo and 6 tons for MLs and you're at 30.25 tons out of 85.

Assume then it's going to run about 520~ points of armor (over the 80 ton Awesome's 496) and that's 16.25 tons there.

That brings your total to 46.5 tons before the Engine and Heat sinks.

A standard 300 weighs 25 tons and would bring an 85 ton Stalker up to 61.5kph with Speed Tweak, the same speed as a tweaked Atlas.

That leaves an extra 8.5 tons for more DHS, AMS, CASE, or whatever else you want to throw on it.

Adjust speed and total heat capacity as needed. Bam. I'd use that over a D-DC.

I luuvvvv heavy mechs and u just game me a mechgasm.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Vlad Ward, on 09 December 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

I don't know, man. An Assault Mech with 4x SRM6 and 6x ML sounds pretty scary.

Let's see, at 85 tons with Endo Steel, you're looking at 4.25 tons of Internals.
Add on 16 tons for Quad Arty SRM6's with 4 tons ammo and 6 tons for MLs and you're at 30.25 tons out of 85.

Assume then it's going to run about 520~ points of armor (over the 80 ton Awesome's 496) and that's 16.25 tons there.

That brings your total to 46.5 tons before the Engine and Heat sinks.

A standard 300 weighs 25 tons and would bring an 85 ton Stalker up to 61.5kph with Speed Tweak, the same speed as a tweaked Atlas.

That leaves an extra 8.5 tons for more DHS, AMS, CASE, or whatever else you want to throw on it.

Adjust speed and total heat capacity as needed. Bam. I'd use that over a D-DC.

Don't forget about the Stalker that also has ECM. Will most likely only have 2 missle hardpoints though.

STK-3Fb - The 3Fb variant of the Stalker carries a Guardian ECM Suite in the center torso, upgrades the large lasers to extended range versions, and adds Artemis IV fire control systems to the LRM-15s that replace the Jackson LRM-10 launchers. The SRM-6 racks are gone, and the standard heat sinks were replaced with seventeen double heat sinks. BV (2.0) = 2,029^[3]

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 09 December 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[Szaesse]

I somewhat agree with the whole statement on ECM. Honestly, any team not running ECM is going to get hammered unless the opposing team also does not have said ECM. The likelihood of 2 teams running against one another without ECM is highly suspect.

Now, admittedly, an ECM unit can run counter ECM to shut down an opponents ECM unit. But that still requires ECM to be used. Considering BAP is supposed to be a more powerful sensor array, The way I see it, BAP should counter ECM, while ECM counters BAP. Meaning that a team running BAP against a team running ECM would find that the odds are effectively evened out as if neither mech were running the device while they are inside one anothers range. While this still requires either BAP or ECM to be run by any particular team, it still makes more sense to me.


As for Ssrms. Ssrms have never been allowed to fire without target lock. Not in any previous MW game, or in the tabletop. It's a failsafe to conserve the precious ammo. It's also their downside. While presently ECM basically hoops ssrms, so long as the above change is made, ssrms remain useful against ECM teams.

[JimTheRat]

I like that opening quote quite a lot. Can we apply it to DHS at 2.0, something people are crying for a great deal?

ECM isn't something 'obviously everyone should take'. It's good, very, very damn good, but what does it actually do? It messes with the locking system. The locking system, I hate to inform you, only really does two things: It makes visual observation of who's shooting who replace the little red triangle for who's targeting who, and it makes visual acquisition of targets the only option. Players using VON of some kind come in at a particular advantage because they can continue to relay information to one another. In terms of damage output, it only messes with missiles, and LRMs can be direct fired (although it is extraordinarily difficult to hit anything without a lock -- I've tried).

ECM doesn't provide a definitive 'I Win' button. It doesn't increase armour, doesn't double output. It does change the information picture on the battlefield, makes it harder to coordinate with your fellow players. Does it need tweaking? Probably. Would I rather brawl one on one with a guy who has ECM or an extra heatsink and a half ton of armour? The guy with ECM.

ECM is unusual and, as such, is being frequently used. The player base is still figuring it out, and the effect ECM brigns to the battlefield is, currently, entirely unique. The Cataphract is similarly new and unusual. I have seen many PUG drops where almost the entire team is made up of Cataphracts. I strongly doubt this will be the case as time moves on -- the Cataphract is no more OP than any other mech variant.

[M00N B34M]

I personally don't use ECM on any of my mechs. None of them can equip it, nor would I be bothered to equip them, even if they could.
Admittedly I never could use LRMs to any particular level of effect past 'none', and rarely used streaks (SRM6s do the same job but with +10 damage!) and the way I pilot my mech means ECM or no ECM my playstyle doesn't need to adjust.
I suggest you learn how to adapt to the situation rather that whine about how bad a player you are OP.

[Odins Fist]

SpiralRazor, on 09 December 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Man, i still dont have any idea what youre talking about.

.
That is obvious....

[Adrian Steel]

SpiralRazor, on 09 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

"If you ever look at a choice and say, "Obviously everyone should take this," or "I would never take this," there's probably something wrong with how they've been balanced. "

-Obsidian Entertainment's Josh Sawyer and Feargus Urquhart.



And this is where we are at now with ECM. Not just ECM though, but ECM is the main culprit and the most identifiable offender currently. IE, every mech that can run ECM, runs ECM, and every mech that cant run it, wishes they could. Every competitive 8 man runs as many as they can.

Or do you just think those two guys dont know what they are talking about?

Quoted for truth.

ECM has no negatives, aside from the paltry 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots it takes up.

The biggest farce is that in order to counter ECM, you need to bring more ECM. This merely homogenizes the meta game.

[cmopatrick]

SpiralRazor, on 09 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

"Do i have it on my 3L, yes. have i dropped with the 3L much lately? No, i'm working on my jenny levels in this profile and don't have enough cbills in the other to have a 3L yet."

Your whole post is invalidated in that case.. You have it, rather then not, on a mech that can equip it, just like everyone else.

Just because your not dropping with it because your working on something else doesnt offer any counter argument at all.

Btw, you cant disagree with the usage of the original quote, it simply is. You can see the effect quite easily and as you point out, you have one yourself.

while i am very tempted to point out several significant flaws in your arguments, let me just settle on the "you can see the effect quite easily and as you point out, you have one yourself." i am a deep scout/spotter by nature. so? the very fact that i do not take out my only 'Mech capable of running such OP equipment would seem to deny your argument rather than strengthen it.

i do not see "easily" (or any other way) that ECM fits the "Obviously everyone should take this," (or the "I would never take this" either) at all. my point is that if knockdown and lag are mitigated, ECM is a sound and not OP tactical choice to fit a role. i do note that you are not providing the opposite answers about why a light mech pilot's opinion is invalid. do you have only streaks on your mechs? are you an lrm boater? what is your complaint with the ECM other than it maybe impacting already strained netcode? is an actual attempt at a tactical game (albeit on rather small maps) that much of a frustration to you?

Edited by cmopatrick, 09 December 2012 - 02:30 PM.