79 replies to this topic

[Aegis Kleais]

Elder Thorn, on 11 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

no offense OP but... since 8vs8 is there, all i hear is so called 'elite players' or 'veterans' crying about losing matches to extreme tactics.

What? No more roflstomps with your unit? Maybe your unit isn't that good?
Don't get me wrong, i did read your OP but what did you expect?
People running arround in pairs brawling it out everywhere or teams using everything they can to win while staying together?

Kinda funny you say that. In my experience, all the 8-man groups who were 'nerfed' with the 4-man groups in Phase I have all been extremely happy that 8-man was restored. They welcomed challenges that only fighting another team could afford them, and were probably as complexed as we were by puggers crying 'foul!' that 8-man teams were unfair simply because they chose to employ teamwork.

Ah well, you'll never get better if you aren't ever challenged.

[Corvus Antaka]

Just base rush. gaurenteed 50% win/loss ratio, and even if you lose you mostly dont pay for repairs. with ECM rushing and jumping them from stealth mode works best anyhow

[Elder Thorn]

Aegis Kleais, on 11 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Kinda funny you say that. In my experience, all the 8-man groups who were 'nerfed' with the 4-man groups in Phase I have all been extremely happy that 8-man was restored. They welcomed challenges that only fighting another team could afford them, and were probably as complexed as we were by puggers crying 'foul!' that 8-man teams were unfair simply because they chose to employ teamwork.

Ah well, you'll never get better if you aren't ever challenged.

thats exactly what it should be like. My view might be biased because you only here the whiners, not those that are happy

[wildfyre010]

Quote

It isn't that ECM is too strong, but rather it has no counters but itself. That makes it a match on who has the most ECM.

QFT.

In my opinion, NARC and TAG should both nullify the effects of ECM on the affected target(s). BAP should substantially reduce (or even nullify; after all, it consumes more tonnage and the same number of criticals) the disruption effect of ECM on the equipped mech(s). The Command module should permit the equipped mech to relay targeting data even in the presence of ECM. In general, consider the possibility of introducing additional functionality that reduces the power of ECM indirectly. It's fine that it's good. It should be good. But there should be more to beating it than simply bringing more of it.

Edited by wildfyre010, 11 December 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[Maleki]

As an LRM user in this ECM world... I love ECM. Every moron dropped his AMS and I have a field day with a TAG now. IF they boost TAGs range and make it counter ECM I'll love ECM even more.

Nothing is as funny as a one volley head shot kill with a TAG on that ECM user.

[Justsumnoob]

I know there is not a hell of a lot of comminication in the PUGs at the mo but i have beem hitting alot of mwo this week and the trend i am seeing now is just pure all out rush or just defend. There are no real tactics involved anymore. When ur team mates feel like talking u can come up with a half decent plan depending on what mechs r in play but lately its nothing like it used to be & quite frankly getting a bit boring. Rush or defend.. zzzz... We need something like multiple control points across the map which tick down the points counter, something like in dawn of war. That way it would not be just a stand off between 2 groups of 8 mechs.

[warp103]

Despaxas, on 10 December 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I think there is some Irony that people are crying ECM boating runied LRM/Streak boating.


The problem is this whole video is the same qq that you are qqing about.
LRM, STREAKS were broken
Gauss wasn't finished.
ECM is a broken solution.

LRM are an indirect fire weapon, that needs to have a more realistic arc. So if there are buildings you can get cover, and if you are going to shoot them you have to be far enough away from cover to clear the hill builfing you are firing from.

Streaks were broken the rise of the streak cat I really have no idea what do to fix this in a way that doesnt make them unusable.

Gauss rifles wreen't finished, I know sure it seemed too good to be true you get almost AC20 damage with AC2 range, ammo dosent explode and no heat. It was a festivus miracle, and everyone ran out and mounted guass rifles every where they could fit.
Except the balance for Guass had always been that hte Ammo doesn't explode the gun does. So now when you have to worry about your miracle gun exploding you declare it unfair and you are quit. I got it I was mad when U/AC5 started jamming but I knew it was gonna happen and the Gauss rifle is no different it has pro's and now is has negatives. You say no one run's Guass anymore and that is not true.

As to ECM yes its off balance, as was UAC Jamming as was Artemis FCS, as was tons of other things. It works on small scale pretty well, They release it and Min/maxers get out and show its broken. I think that it should eliminate indirect fire LRM, but if you have direct LOS to target you can launch away, maybe with an increase lock time and easier lock breaks. Streaks work with ECM but function like regular SRMs. I think if you have LOS to a target you should be able to target them, maybe you dont get the damage readout or other target info. I like that ECM reduces target info sharing

too many people got used to playing in the boat of their choice and when anything changed that they scream bloody murder. the only game mode right now is capture and its starting to get old. Too often people just run the whole team to the others cap and it turns into a cap race or they collide in the middle and its one brawl.

These forums have had more people rage quitting than any other forum I have seen. People have been rage quitting since before the game was in friends and family beta.
There hasnt even been 1 patch allowed out post ecm. I know the beta tag doesn't excuse all teh problems. it does justify a little patience.

ok i agree to most exp glass, missile this. Glass are ez and I mean ez to destroy. It nearing kills your mech in the process.
were lrm ammo does the same when it exploses it much harder for it to blow. I measured it the best that I can. test show it 4 to 1 in damage.
So the move to 3 damage is to low 4.5 might have been a been a better starting point.
But the dev as you have show always set it on OP then dial it back. Instead of making it low and dial it up slow{better solution to do.

[RenegadeMaster]

When new elements of the game are added that change gameplay significantly, people cannot expect to use the same tactics that they did before.

In at least 8v8, teams have definitely become more aggressive. So teams have to adjust their tactics to be able to deal with that. No team composition is going to result in an win for all situations, but tactics can make extreme situations and prolific ECM use by the enemy easier to handle.

For instance: I was scouting in an 8 man with mostly heavies & assaults on Forest Colony. When I scouted water, I saw that the other team was 7 lights and 1 medium rushing water, and notified the rest of the team before I got steamrolled by them all - Scary as hell! Thankfully, the team first rendesvous point was not half way across the map, and faster mechs were closer to the base. Everybody fell back, put our backs to each other & the base, and our team ended up winning the match.

[Xenok]

RenegadeMaster, on 12 December 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

When new elements of the game are added that change gameplay significantly, people cannot expect to use the same tactics that they did before.

In at least 8v8, teams have definitely become more aggressive. So teams have to adjust their tactics to be able to deal with that. No team composition is going to result in an win for all situations, but tactics can make extreme situations and prolific ECM use by the enemy easier to handle.

For instance: I was scouting in an 8 man with mostly heavies & assaults on Forest Colony. When I scouted water, I saw that the other team was 7 lights and 1 medium rushing water, and notified the rest of the team before I got steamrolled by them all - Scary as hell! Thankfully, the team first rendesvous point was not half way across the map, and faster mechs were closer to the base. Everybody fell back, put our backs to each other & the base, and our team ended up winning the match.

I was playing 8v8 premaid and guess what we were winning with a mix of mechs. People were playing what they wanted. We had 1 ECM mech and it was our scout. We were not (most of the time) even using it for cover. I wont reveal the exact tactics we were using but we were taking down 8 atlas teams with two scouts with ECM on them all with 0-1 deaths. We had some games where our strategy went wrong and we got wiped. we won about 80% and proved that ECM is not as broken as some say.

I maintain that ECM likely needs no or very little changes. BAP, NARC and TAG all need improvements to effectively deal with it. I myself will likely not carry BAP, NARC or TAG even if they do get improved. I have always been a ballistic loving brawler even when missiles were the rage. I do not need to target to hit with the weapons I love so it has no bearing on me directly and my play style. For those that like LRMs and streaks. It was about time you got the nurf bat; whats better is they did it a good way. The end result will be ECM rocks, AMS is back and LRMs and SSRMs are mean if you can get that lock, but getting it wont be just because someone walked across an open area. You are going to have to use some skill to do it. I truly am excited about how this turns out. ECM is a great addition and once its counters are balanced it will make the game way more fun.

[SilentSooYun]

GoDsiZeSnakEyes, on 09 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm about done with MWO. Performance going downhill with each patch ruined it for me. Can't brawl with single digit fps and ecm killed lrm boats, my only effective load out in this slide show. .

I'm not done with MWO yet, but I've been taking some time off because of these very issues.
Been playing other games (flawlessly, I might add) to remind myself that it's not necessarily my computer that's the problem, just their poor optimisation.

[Reginald Rawlins]

People need something to complain about. The game's in beta. Things are going to change. It's not always possible to know what something is going to do before it's released.

Bottom line--adapt or die. There are countless viable strategies for winning both 8v8 and pug matches. "LOL get all the ECM and auto-win" is not some sort of magic bullet. All you have to do to win is use your brain.

[AlanEsh]

knnniggett, on 09 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

As long as the game has a status of beta, things like this are not going to stop. This is by design.

I don't care to have my Premium time counting down while the game is in this state. Call it beta all you want, but many of us clicked "Activate" for our founder's premium time back before the devs totally ****** up mech diversity by rushing a totally broken piece of equipment into the game.

Internal testing before releasing new features ... might want to try it PGI.

[Tolkien]

Angelicon, on 13 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

I don't care to have my Premium time counting down while the game is in this state. Call it beta all you want, but many of us clicked "Activate" for our founder's premium time back before the devs totally ****** up mech diversity by rushing a totally broken piece of equipment into the game.

Internal testing before releasing new features ... might want to try it PGI.

Bingo bango hit the nail on the head, give the man a gold star. I luckily decided not to start my time due to knowing I would be on the road a fair bit shortly, but I feel the pain of those founders, especially those who chose an LRM catapult as their founders mech who started their premium time ticking.

And for those who don't think that there's something rotten with the way ECM was done, let's review>

You are suggesting that there is nothing wrong with having a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks except in a 20 metre ribbon...
SRM locks in a tiny ribbon of space...
general targeting info, and monkey hammers situational awareness
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15

If you are honestly asserting that there is nothing wrong with this from a game balance point of view, you are saying that an ECM is only about as useful as a small laser + a single heatsink, or slightly less useful than 2 medium lasers.

There is a serious problem with the implementation of ECM, both in how much it does, and how little it costs to do it.

[knight-of-ni]

Angelicon, on 13 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

I don't care to have my Premium time counting down while the game is in this state. Call it beta all you want, but many of us clicked "Activate" for our founder's premium time back before the devs totally ****** up mech diversity by rushing a totally broken piece of equipment into the game.

Internal testing before releasing new features ... might want to try it PGI.

I can understand that. If you paid real money for something that isn't meeting your expectations then that is a good reason to contact the seller of said widget directly and work out the problem with them. Have you tried that? It might take persistence.

We can debate the meaning of the word "beta" all day long. However, regardless of what you or I call it, PGI is treating it like an incomplete piece of software and will continue to introduce "features" that may require refinement. They've told us as much. I'm sorry that might upset some, but I personally think this is something positive. How many other games are out there that let you participate in the shaping of the game itself? Maybe there are others.

[SubXulu]

Memorydump, on 10 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

building games in about balance, as the game is not officially released yet, they can use you as a test audience. They add in a neat feature? a little overpowered, maybe? require a change in tactics definitely. But you act as if it can't be balanced in a bit once all the dust has settled, just give it some time.

True ... but can you really be arsed? , im like the OP, i log in now, get blitzed by an ECM mech swarm and then just log out, i used to quiet like Gauss cats and LRM boats (3 / 4 of my mechs are cats) now they suck and i really cant be arsed to grind out more bills and spend MC on new mechs and garage slots just so i can have an ECM head-butt mech as well .

I just spent £10 with Riot instead and bought a couple of new champs.

[Xenok]

Angelicon, on 13 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

I don't care to have my Premium time counting down while the game is in this state. Call it beta all you want, but many of us clicked "Activate" for our founder's premium time back before the devs totally ****** up mech diversity by rushing a totally broken piece of equipment into the game.

Internal testing before releasing new features ... might want to try it PGI.

They do some internal testing. As they stated very clearly there are some things they need a larger player base to test effectively. gear and weapon adjustments are such a thing. If you started your premium time, to bad. I did not. I did not because they said they would be testing and introducing new stuff in open beta. I want to wait until it is shipping and use it then. Its great that they gave us the option to use it when we want to. You elected to do so, now live with the consequences; your not entitled to anything else as they informed us of there intent with open beta and gave us the ability to choose to wait until later to use our premium time.

[Tolkien]

Xenok, on 13 December 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

They do some internal testing. As they stated very clearly there are some things they need a larger player base to test effectively. gear and weapon adjustments are such a thing. If you started your premium time, to bad. I did not. I did not because they said they would be testing and introducing new stuff in open beta. I want to wait until it is shipping and use it then. Its great that they gave us the option to use it when we want to. You elected to do so, now live with the consequences; your not entitled to anything else as they informed us of there intent with open beta and gave us the ability to choose to wait until later to use our premium time.

You can take this position, and so can PGI if they want, but remember - there are banner ads all over right now advertising this game to the general public. We had a closed beta so they could break the game in front of a friendly and patient audience, but now general people are starting to show up.

Jerk them around more than once and you likely lose them forever. My concern about the dramatic adjustments going on at this late hour rather than in closed beta is that it's going to put some people off the game permanently.

Edited by Tolkien, 13 December 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[x Marder x]

ECM shod have two modes
Mode 1: Protect only the mech equip t with it and nobody else (good for scouting)
Mode 2: Protect every one in a bubble but not the mech equip d wit ecm, lets say that all antennas and microwaves and radars are spamming all channels that so much electricity is coming from him that two star systems away he can be lock on.(Good for support of the team) but you have to stay in cover or run from cover to cover and stay close to your team to be effective.
Switching modes takes some time like 30 seconds cooldown.

[GoriKarafong]

If I read in PC Gamer this:

Quote

I also asked Inouye if Piranha is happy with the recent implementation of the ECM (electronic counter-measures) system to MWO, which allows some mechs to equip radar and lock-on jamming equipment. "The effect [of ECM] is working as intended and forces players to play a lot smarter," he said. "Specialized Mechs still have their place on the battlefield but they are going to need the assistance of their teammates to succeed. If you plan on taking specialized Mech into a match, plan wisely and have alternate weapon systems that will help you with mid to long-range combat. People are thinking we need to severely 'nerf' the ECM. This is not the case at all. There is already 1 counter-ECM item in the game (TAG), and likely there will be a couple more involving modules and weapon effects.

I feel like my 120$ are going down the drain. No feedback to ECM from PGI at all, but this, I cannot understand what PGI is thinking. If they cannot see what is going on here all hope is lost. At least for me.

If you think I am just ranting, feel free to read this post:

http://mwomercs.com/...83#entry1551783

Sadly I think it is too much to read for PGI to do so.

Hopefully I dont need to wait another 10 years for the next MW-Game. Fingers Crossed.

And for those of you calling me a noob. I am still winning most games but it is just no fun anymore seeing mostly ECM Atlas and ECM Raven and haveing the need to run those by myself.

So close PGI, so close....

[GoriKarafong]

I sincerly hope the PC Gamer comment is not the one and only official ECM response by PGI. I would be very disapointed.