134 replies to this topic

[The Cheese]

CompositeGNFNR, on 09 December 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Lag effects the aimbot as well as any aimbot would not currently hit a high ping light.

Aim bots are very capable of adjusting for latency.

[CompositeGNFNR]

The Cheese, on 09 December 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Aim bots are very capable of adjusting for latency.

ITs a bit harder to do in server-side calculations, and the aimbot would always be a few seconds behind on the latency update; also would be easier to detect.

[Vlad Ward]

Or we could just wait a couple months and let them fix Netcode instead of having them change to an easily exploitable system that would, itself, take just as long to write and implement for the current game.

If it's going to take man-hours either way, you may as well do it right from the start. Server-side authentication all the way.

[The Cheese]

CompositeGNFNR, on 09 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

or you could wait until they fix the netcode...which is a number 1. priority.

I never said I was going to quit because of the current issues. The simple fact is that due to my high ping (260 avg) I will never be on equal grounds with a low ping player as long as server-side auth is the detection mechanic. Even when the netcode is as close to perfect as it's ever going to get, I will still be at a disadvantage, as will anyone else outside America/Canada.

Also, punkbuster is a horrible waste of hard disk space. Please, never, ever implement that in this game.

[Codejack]

CompositeGNFNR, on 09 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

until punkbuster starts kicking people out of servers for no reason, which has happened multiple times, which could potentially hurt F2P sales.

It depends on how it's implemented; if it kicks people, yea, but if it just flags your account for a GM to watch your next round....

Kaspirikay, on 09 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

problem with that is this is a F2P game as well. Throw away accounts and all that.

Then you start banning IPs. I want to see them try to run this game through an anonymizer!

[Kaspirikay]

The Cheese, on 09 December 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

I never said I was going to quit because of the current issues. The simple fact is that due to my high ping (260 avg) I will never be on equal grounds with a low ping player as long as server-side auth is the detection mechanic. Even when the netcode is as close to perfect as it's ever going to get, I will still be at a disadvantage, as will anyone else outside America/Canada. Also, punkbuster is a horrible waste of hard disk space. Please, never, ever implement that in this game.

PB sucks.

[MrPenguin]

Asmosis, on 09 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Right, the obvious solution to stopping people from hacking is to make it so nobody can hit anything, then its balanced (unless you live in america, then your allowed to shoot stuff).

It has nothing to do with hacking, more to do with the fact that it makes higher ping players god mod players with aimbot with out any hack tools required. Like stated above, its one of the most bullcrap elemental authoritative server-client responsabilities ever conceived.

Hell, you don't even understand how it works. So who are YOU to argue otherwise?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Kaspirikay, on 09 December 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

So? Hackers will be everywhere. Theres no stopping them.

Just because of hackers, you want to make half of the world suffer?

I just want to touch on this?

No, the devs don't want Euro's to suffer.

However I don't see you guy's chomping at the bit to work with PGI to help them get a deal to get you servers over there... I don't see you shelling out tons of Euro's to get your servers.

PGI is from Canada, thus the Servers are located in North America. Don't like that fact, keep talking to the devs, at this point, they don't have the money, or the resources to give you guys servers, so either deal with the netcode as is, and hope it get's better soon, or start shelling out money so you can get Euro servers.

[MrPenguin]

Jade Kitsune, on 09 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I just want to touch on this?

No, the devs don't want Euro's to suffer.

However I don't see you guy's chomping at the bit to work with PGI to help them get a deal to get you servers over there... I don't see you shelling out tons of Euro's to get your servers.

PGI is from Canada, thus the Servers are located in North America. Don't like that fact, keep talking to the devs, at this point, they don't have the money, or the resources to give you guys servers, so either deal with the netcode as is, and hope it get's better soon, or start shelling out money so you can get Euro servers.

[Kaspirikay]

Jade Kitsune, on 09 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I just want to touch on this? No, the devs don't want Euro's to suffer. However I don't see you guy's chomping at the bit to work with PGI to help them get a deal to get you servers over there... I don't see you shelling out tons of Euro's to get your servers. PGI is from Canada, thus the Servers are located in North America. Don't like that fact, keep talking to the devs, at this point, they don't have the money, or the resources to give you guys servers, so either deal with the netcode as is, and hope it get's better soon, or start shelling out money so you can get Euro servers.

No one asked for regional servers in this thread. No idea what you're talking about.

[The Cheese]

CompositeGNFNR, on 09 December 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

ITs a bit harder to do in server-side calculations, and the aimbot would always be a few seconds behind on the latency update; also would be easier to detect.

Not really. Optical recognition bots work without actually touching the client software at all, so they've very hard to detect without something like Blizzard's Warden running. They're not quite as efficient or precise as an injected bot, but a well written one will easily out-aim a human player. They also only need to take the local client's latency into account, as they only need to see what the client sees. They don't need to make an educated guess at what the server's seeing in order to lead a target with reasonably consistent accuracy.

They're not commonly used because they require a LOT of spare processing power on the client PC to work at a rate which would make them more effective than an average human player.

[QuantumButler]

You don't understand man MWO is going for the authentic nostalgic experience of playing early 90s games online over 52k modems, just like MW2's netmech!

The crappy hit detection is a feature!™

Edited by QuantumButler, 09 December 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[CompositeGNFNR]

The Cheese, on 09 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Not really. Optical recognition bots work without actually touching the client software at all, so they've very hard to detect without something like Blizzard's Warden running. They're not quite as efficient or precise as an injected bot, but a well written one will easily out-aim a human player. They also only need to take the local client's latency into account, as they only need to see what the client sees. They don't need to make an educated guess at what the server's seeing in order to lead a target with reasonably consistent accuracy.

They're not commonly used because they require a LOT of spare processing power on the client PC to work at a rate which would make them more effective than an average human player.

Ah, cool did not knOw that. Seems really rare, especially compared to client side auth. Hacks.

[The Cheese]

MrPenguin, on 09 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with hacking, more to do with the fact that it makes higher ping players god mod players with aimbot with out any hack tools required.

To be fair, the current system allows low ping players to be "god mod players with aimbot with out any hack tools required", or near enough to it, when compared to high ping players.

[xenoglyph]

The Cheese, on 09 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Not really. Optical recognition bots work without actually touching the client software at all, so they've very hard to detect without something like Blizzard's Warden running. They're not quite as efficient or precise as an injected bot, but a well written one will easily out-aim a human player. They also only need to take the local client's latency into account, as they only need to see what the client sees. They don't need to make an educated guess at what the server's seeing in order to lead a target with reasonably consistent accuracy.

They're not commonly used because they require a LOT of spare processing power on the client PC to work at a rate which would make them more effective than an average human player.

I have personally written such a bot for poker (where visual processing is actually simple x,y pixel color scanning on a predictable 2d layout). To do that for a 3d game would be an impressive feat indeed. It would actually push the limits of modern object recognition and probably be a worthy topic for a phd thesis. I postulate that not even a crude system for visual detection of 3d objects at various viewing angles and ranges exists for a 3d game. I'd love to be proved wrong.

Edited by xenoglyph, 09 December 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[MrPenguin]

The Cheese, on 09 December 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

To be fair, the current system allows low ping players to be "god mod players with aimbot with out any hack tools required", or near enough to it, when compared to high ping players.

So, the answer is to make things worst? Thats the most brain dead argument I've ever heard on this forum. And thats saying something...

[Chip Danger]

You all know there will be an EU sever? Stop trying to break the game when the fix is down the road.


This is just the dumbest idea I have seen to this point.

[The Cheese]

xenoglyph, on 09 December 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

I have personally written such a bot for poker (where visual processing is actually simple x,y pixel color scanning on a predictable 2d layout). To do that for a 3d game would be an impressive feat indeed. It would actually push the limits of modern object recognition and probably be a worthy topic for a phd thesis. I postulate that not even a crude system for visual detection of 3d objects at various viewing angles and ranges exists for a 3d game. I'd love to be proved wrong.

You are quite right with your statement on 3d object recognition. You're assuming that the system actually needs to be able to recognise a 3d object though. It's not quite so difficult when you're just looking for a red triangle. Combine that with a quick switch to Thermal filter. Now, it's either seeing a red triangle with nothing significant below it (mech is detected, but behind cover or powered down), or a red triangle with a blob of colour below it which is brighter then it's surroundings.

Active hostile mech has now been detected and can be consistently identified. Of course, there are complications (ECM for example), but nothing insurmountable.

I have personally written a bot for a certain popular 3D dungeon crawler game using this concept which worked very well as a grinding bot.

MrPenguin, on 09 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

So, the answer is to make things worst? Thats the most brain dead argument I've ever heard on this forum. And thats saying something...

Relax, dude. I'm just saying that things are unfair for some players as they are and that there's no point in making a change which moves the unfair advantage/disadvantage to a different group of players.

I never suggested in any way that it would be a good idea to bring down the standard for everyone.

ANYWAYS... The point of all this is that whether the hit detection is client side or server side, there will always be people who can exploit the implemented system to gain an unfair advantage.

Edited by The Cheese, 09 December 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[Asmosis]

MrPenguin, on 09 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with hacking, more to do with the fact that it makes higher ping players god mod players with aimbot with out any hack tools required. Like stated above, its one of the most bullcrap elemental authoritative server-client responsabilities ever conceived.

Hell, you don't even understand how it works. So who are YOU to argue otherwise?

For the purpose of cheating, hacking and aimbots are the same thing in that they both enable cheating so your wrong on that one.

I like how you imply that local players (as in canada/america) dont need these things though because the netcode problems dont affect them, which shows your in agreement with the OP.

[Kaspirikay]

Rizzwind, on 09 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

You all know there will be an EU sever? Stop trying to break the game when the fix is down the road. This is just the dumbest idea I have seen to this point.

How is an EU server going to solve things? Only EU players will get the benefits. How is opening and maintaining 3 different sets of servers worldwide (NA, EU and Pac) going to help the cost of the company? Didn't people also say more servers would split the community and break community warfare?