46 replies to this topic

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

I like my 6 medium laser cicada way way more than I like the ecm one; I would actually recommend it as a great starter mech for anyone. Of course the cicada is probably the weakest ecm capable mech, but that is my experience.

A bigger issue is the fact that the current matchmaker makes the game almost inaccessible to new players, ecm or not. If you want to take them in to 8v8 your team is probably going to get stomped with or without ecm. Set them loose on their own in the pug queue and, well, you know how that goes.

You could escort them in 4-person drops, and as long as you aren't facing any "skilled" pugstompers they will do just fine with or without ecm. So I guess my recommendation would be no, they don't need it; especially since it will most likely be adjusted/nerfed eventually anyway.

[Pygar]

Yes, because if done right ECM can cover enough other mechs that it isn't really worthwhile for everybody on the team to have ECM.

[Codejack]

Pygar, on 10 December 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Yes, because if done right ECM can cover enough other mechs that it isn't really worthwhile for everybody on the team to have ECM.

You mean, unless the enemy has more than 1 ECM mech?

[Nonsense]

Pugastrius, on 10 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Regarding A: Sorry but no intelligent person could believe this

People seem to mistake "the ability to win" as being balanced...

Sorry but I'm intelligent and I think ECM is mostly fine. There are MANY factors that go into making it a problem, and not all of them are the abilities of ECM itself. There's netcode, there's the lack of a fun, proper counter, and a lack of matchmaking/lobby/etc to make sure matches don't randomly occur with 4 ECM mechs on one side and 0 on another.

Everyone whines about ECM itself, but there's really nothing supremely OP about the item itself. All these whiners want to balance it by changing the item instead of leaving the item the same and changing other things around it.

It shows an extreme lack of patience and foresight to continuously post and make threads in this manner.

...and you insinuate that I'm not intelligent because I believe ECM is "mostly fine".

lol.

[The Bad Charlie]

The ECM mechs are damn good right now, but other viable mechs i can think of are the HBK-4SP, the CPLT-K2 and maybe the A1 if you run 6xSRM6. Jenners are viable but not a good choice, anything else i dont like.

[Gaeb]

Nonsense, on 10 December 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Sorry but I'm intelligent and I think ECM is mostly fine.

This, and I'm a 'smaht guy'. I also am not violently overreacting to its *first* *live* *patch* because its *beta* and ...

oh never mind. Continue the nonstop whining, ecm-haters. Its not going anywhere. It might have a counter or two installed, it might get tweaked in one direction or another for power, but it adds a great element to the game.

[Walrus Jockey]

Most of the mechs that I have the most fun with are not ECM mechs. I also feel that ECM is working perfectly.

As far as everything talking about there needing to be a counter to it, the ECM itself is the counter to ECM. The same mechs that can carry the ECM can then counter an enemy ECM. How much more balanced can you get.

The best counter for ECM thought is the pilot. You don't need to be able to target to fire on a mech, and you have all the tools needed to take the ECM carrier down. If feel your mech build is totally helpless in the presence of an ECM, then you need to rethink your build.

The best builds I've seen aren't effected by ECM at all. And the best pilots that I have seen don't rely on target lock. even with LRMs.

[Gaeb]

Ceistant, on 10 December 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

As far as everything talking about there needing to be a counter to it, the ECM itself is the counter to ECM. The same mechs that can carry the ECM can then counter an enemy ECM. How much more balanced can you get.

The (somewhat valid) counterargument to this is that the team with the most ECM's therefore wins. Somewhat valid, but pretty flawed.

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The best counter for ECM thought is the pilot. You don't need to be able to target to fire on a mech, and you have all the tools needed to take the ECM carrier down. If feel your mech build is totally helpless in the presence of an ECM, then you need to rethink your build.

The best builds I've seen aren't effected by ECM at all. And the best pilots that I have seen don't rely on target lock. even with LRMs.

This is a thinking man's quote RE: the counter to ECM.

[Kraven Kor]

Codejack, on 10 December 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

You mean, unless the enemy has more than 1 ECM mech?

OK, two teams, right?

So Team A has 1 ECM mech. Team B has two. Team B has an advantage; they can have ECM covering team, and an ECM scout. Once the fighting starts, given more or less matching amounts of direct fire capability on both teams, there is no clear winner just from ECM. Team B has an advantage, but is not guaranteed a win. If Team A had, say, a Streak Cat and an LRM Boat, this advantage becomes more apparent.

Let's up it. Team A has 3 ECM mechs - an Atlas D-DC, and lets say a Streakmando, and a Streak Raven; complimented by, say, 2 Cataphracts, an Awesome because we are terrible, 1 SRM6 Cat, and some loser in a Centurion AL. Team B has 5 - FIVE - ECM mechs. TWO Atlas D-DC, TWO Streakmandos, and an ECM Cicada; filled out by 2 Cataphracts, and a SRM-6 Cat.

Who wins?

Does having 5 ECM mechs automatically make Team B win? Can team A manage to kill the Commando's before being ravaged by counter-ECM and Streaks?

Do you see that there is more to how a match plays out than just "who has more ECM wins" and how, yes, you can in fact have "too much ECM?"

Does Team A maybe have a touch more firepower despite being down an Atlas?

This is why we keep saying that, while some things are problematic and might change, or whatever, the best thing to do is adjust to play the game you have instead of complaining to get the game you want. I'm fine with constant discussion of ECM and the ups and downs - but, again, I am mostly winning - in 8 mans and 4 mans - because my team has made the bare minimum attempt to understand and adjust to the current realities of the game.

And seriously, if you saw the complete lack of concentrated effort it is taking me to at least do well enough in both queues to not get laughed off our TS server, you would understand how simple this is.

[skullman86]

I wouldn't recommend that they spend real money on any mech outside maybe a hero mech. ECM mechs, while effective, are not always going to be "OP". People are going to develop better tactics to fight them and if not you can almost count on the devs to nerf it at some point. Using MC on a mech that grants you no c-bill or XP bonus is a waste in my opinion.

[Codejack]

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

oh never mind. Continue the nonstop whining, ecm-haters. Its not going anywhere. It might have a counter or two installed, it might get tweaked in one direction or another for power, but it adds a great element to the game.

Who are these people who are supposedly calling for it to be removed? I'm not sure that option got more than 1% of the vote in any of the polls.

Of course we are supposed to have EW; it's just stupidly unbalanced right now. ECM counters EVERYTHING, including itself!

ECM is supposed to counter other EW, and then only at close range! I'm fine with changing things around, but if you are going to make one piece of equipment vastly more powerful, then you really need to carefully examine the equipment that it interacts with to make sure that there is some reason to carry it.

[Gaeb]

Codejack, on 10 December 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Of course we are supposed to have EW; it's just stupidly unbalanced right now. ECM counters EVERYTHING, including itself!

ECM counters EVERYTHING! EVEN THE LAG SHIELD !!!! IT COUNTERS THE MK.1 EYEBALL AND THE MK.1 BRAIN!!!!!!!!

... for some people.

[Codejack]

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

ECM counters EVERYTHING! EVEN THE LAG SHIELD !!!! IT COUNTERS THE MK.1 EYEBALL AND THE MK.1 BRAIN!!!!!!!!

... for some people.

It counters all EW.

Are you developmentally challenged, or just obnoxious?

Edited by Codejack, 10 December 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[Gaeb]

Codejack, on 10 December 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

It counters all EW.

Are you developmentally challenged, or just obnoxious?

No, I historically test in the top 2-3% and I abhor intellectual laziness and blanket moron generalizations. ECM hard-counters streaks and LRM's. That's *it*. Direct fire weapons are in no way impeded. Scouting and communication are only lightly impeded. It adds an interesting dynamic to the game but it is by no means an I-WIN button.

In short, ECM does not counter the Mk.1 eyeball and Mk.1 brain. Except for some people.

[Codejack]

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

No, I historically test in the top 2-3% and I abhor intellectual laziness and blanket moron generalizations.

Then quit using them and quit bragging; I do better than the top 2%, but that doesn't mean that I don't miss things.

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

ECM hard-counters streaks and LRM's. That's *it*. Direct fire weapons are in no way impeded. Scouting and communication are only lightly impeded. It adds an interesting dynamic to the game but it is by no means an I-WIN button.

It removes two weapon systems from the game unless you know that you will have ECM on your team. If your scouts have ECM so you can run a streakcat, but the PUG you are facing winds up with, say, 1 ECM to your 2 or 3, then all you have done is shift the ability to use that "overpowered" streakcat to the team that has the "just fine, thank-you-please-don't-nerf-it-so-we-don't-have-to-learn-how-to-build-mechs-right!" ECM.

In other words, it has stacked the deck against new players and PUGs even more than it was before.

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

In short, ECM does not counter the Mk.1 eyeball and Mk.1 brain. Except for some people.

Well, you have to have a brain to counter, so I guess leaving yours in your other pants counts as a workaround.

Cut the insults and strawmen; you're no good at it, anyway. Bring a legitimate compromise, admit that you are outrageously biased, or leave me alone.

[Gaeb]

Codejack, on 10 December 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Then quit using them and quit bragging; I do better than the top 2%, but that doesn't mean that I don't miss things.

Really. Somehow I'm a skeptic, based off of only a few days of reading your posts and that atrocious video of you not leading your Jenner target with a SRM6 Cat.

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It removes two weapon systems from the game unless you know that you will have ECM on your team. If your scouts have ECM so you can run a streakcat, but the PUG you are facing winds up with, say, 1 ECM to your 2 or 3, then all you have done is shift the ability to use that "overpowered" streakcat to the team that has the "just fine, thank-you-please-don't-nerf-it-so-we-don't-have-to-learn-how-to-build-mechs-right!" ECM.

In other words, it has stacked the deck against new players and PUGs even more than it was before.

A) Here we go with the intellectual laziness again. It does not remove Streak and LRM weapon systems from the game. It counters them when the desired target is within the ECM bubble, or when the user is within the bubble. People get around this on a daily basis.
So much focus on the streakcat. Lol.

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Well, you have to have a brain to counter, so I guess leaving yours in your other pants counts as a workaround.

I don't always wear pants, but when I do, you need at least 3 more ECM on your team.

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Cut the insults and strawmen; you're no good at it, anyway. Bring a legitimate compromise, admit that you are outrageously biased, or leave me alone.

Strawmen? Hah.

Compromise? ROFLCOPTERS. I don't do anything as far as game balance. The devs do. They added a new feature that adds tactical depth and makes the game more interesting. My only take on compromise is the same its been for any other game I've tested - don't overreact to beta, kids. Hell, even LoL's release had a number of vastly OP mechanics that got tuned out over the next year.

Leave you alone? What is this, grade school? Except the nerd is doing the taunting?

[Elizander]

I haven't used a single ECM mech since it was patched. I just stopped using SSRMs and LRMs completely. I also threw away all my AMS.

[Codejack]

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Really. Somehow I'm a skeptic, based off of only a few days of reading your posts and that atrocious video of you not leading your Jenner target with a SRM6 Cat.

Well, since you can clearly see the cooldown start long before the missiles launch, and one volley even hits and explodes on the target, but does no damage, you are either not watching very well or you are lying; which is it?

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

A) Here we go with the intellectual laziness again. It does not remove Streak and LRM weapon systems from the game. It counters them when the desired target is within the ECM bubble, or when the user is within the bubble. People get around this on a daily basis.

Irony abounds; or is it mere projection when you accuse me of intellectual laziness? Streaks won't fire without lock, which you can only get between 180 and 200m, which is pretty much impossible to stay in against any moderately competent opponent, and LRMs only dumb fire and are so slow that pretty much anything can dodge them at their minimum range.

Yes, people get around it, WITH ECM!

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Strawmen? Hah.

Yes, strawmen; you are attacking arguments that I have not made.

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Compromise? ROFLCOPTERS. I don't do anything as far as game balance. The devs do. They added a new feature that adds tactical depth and makes the game more interesting. My only take on compromise is the same its been for any other game I've tested - don't overreact to beta, kids. Hell, even LoL's release had a number of vastly OP mechanics that got tuned out over the next year.

OK, since I have decided to treat you as if you are just developmentally challenged, even though you are clearly obnoxious, as well, I will spell this out for you:

YOU ARE A BETA TESTER! YOUR OPINION CARRIES SOME SMALL WEIGHT!

Yes, the devs do the actual programming, but they program what their bosses tell them to, and their bosses do what they think is best for the game. The opinion of the people on this forum will have some effect on those decisions, and the people who are going around saying, "don't touch ECM, it's fine!" are either hopelessly biased, mentally deranged, or flat-out lying.

Gaeb, on 10 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Leave you alone? What is this, grade school? Except the nerd is doing the taunting?

I wouldn't call you a nerd.

[Gaeb]

Codejack, on 10 December 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Well, since you can clearly see the cooldown start long before the missiles launch, and one volley even hits and explodes on the target, but does no damage, you are either not watching very well or you are lying; which is it?

False choice. The answer is you're bad.

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Irony abounds;

Comprehension fail.

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Yes, strawmen; you are attacking arguments that I have not made.

Really, read what I quote.

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OK, since I have decided to treat you as if you are just developmentally challenged, even though you are clearly obnoxious, as well, I will spell this out for you:

YOU ARE A BETA TESTER! YOUR OPINION CARRIES SOME SMALL WEIGHT!

Yes, the devs do the actual programming, but they program what their bosses tell them to, and their bosses do what they think is best for the game. The opinion of the people on this forum will have some effect on those decisions, and the people who are going around saying, "don't touch ECM, it's fine!" are either hopelessly biased, mentally deranged, or flat-out lying.

1) I grant you the small weight comment
2) No one - especially not the devs - is saying don't touch ECM. You DID see the TAG and NARC notes right?
3) REPEATED THREADS ABOUT THIS TOPIC WHEN PLENTY OF PEOPLE ARE FINE WITH ECM AS IS ARE A USELESS WASTE OF TIME AND DEMONSTRATE A RESOUNDING DISCONNECT BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO CAN ADAPT TO ECM AND THOSE WHO CANNOT.

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I wouldn't call you a nerd.

I'm so hurt.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

I own 4 mechs and the 4 founders I have no mech with ecm. So I voted yes.


edit: lol unless it put it on one of them without my knowledge...... install....

Edited by Cuthbert Allgood, 10 December 2012 - 07:53 PM.