28 replies to this topic

[Pugastrius]

Posted by PGI 11/28/12:

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We would also like to remind people that the ECM is not all powerful. The rock to its scissors is the TAG laser. If you use it to hit anyone cloaked by an ECM, you and your team will be able to target them. Like any new addition to the game, this just requires a shift in thinking how to equip your Mech and/or team.

TLDR: Even after buffing the range, TAG is not the rock to the ECM scissors.

Let's Compare the "Rock" to the Scissors:

At Range:

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Scissors: The ECM blocks targeting of ALL allies with-in its radius.
Rock: Tag un-blocks targeting of one enemy if LOS is maintained if successfully targeted.

So let's assume you use this "Rock." Scout moves out from behind cover and is able to successfully Tag a target. Scout is now in LOS of at least one opponent so they also become visible. Now... who has the easier job?

The tagger who has to keep the opponent targeted or the team who just has to keep a visual?

Winner: Scissors: Maintaining a lock on a single target is easier for the team that has the ECM than it is for the team with the TAG, and let's not forget... EVEN IF he can keep him lit, he's only exposing a single target of an entire team cloaked by ECM.

At Close Range:

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Scissors: Still cloaks, but also disrupts the battle grid and a slew of other annoying things.
Rock: Within the area of effect of the ECM, the TAG does nothing.

Winner: Scissors: "Obviously"

Regarding Hardpoint and Space Constraints:

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Scissors: Can be put anywhere.
Rock: TAG eats up an Energy hard point

Winner: Scissors: The TAG equipped mech will always carry less weaponry than the ECM equipped mech.

I'm really failing to see how TAG is the "Rock" to the ECM "Scissors". I can't even come up with a buff to TAG to make it the Rock.

[Vassago Rain]

Give it a duration, instead of a persistent effect. So if you tag someone, and you lase off it, you still have X seconds.

[Team Leader]

There is none. They way ECM was implemented, it is too powerful for the cost you have to pay to get it on your mech. They should just let you put tag on your mech for 1 ton wherever you have guns.

Edited by Team Leader, 10 December 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[Pugastrius]

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They should just let you put tag on your mech for 1 ton wherever you have guns.

So this fixes the last issue only.

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Give it a duration, instead of a persistent effect.

This doesn't even fix the first issue (Maybe if it were a 30 second tag or something). The fact is, the magnitude of difficulty difference from being able to hit someone with the TAG and just having to have the opponent in your LOS is monsterous. Nevermind that the ECM is AOE so you still have the issue of TAG revealing only one of an entire group covered by the ECM.

Edited by Pugastrius, 10 December 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[Khobai]

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Even after buffing the range, TAG is not the rock to the ECM scissors.

TAG is the **** to ECM's diarrhea sh*t storm.

[Belorion]

Its more like ecm is paper, and tag is its hole-punch. Oh and ecm is also the scissors when in counter mode.

[Stormur Herra]

Tag is the pebble to ECM's scissors!

[Beo Vulf]

Pugastrius, on 10 December 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Posted by PGI 11/28/12:


I'm really failing to see how TAG is the "Rock" to the ECM "Scissors". I can't even come up with a buff to TAG to make it the Rock.

Tag on an ECM equiped Mech doesnt allow that Mech to be detected so a scout with ecm, and tag can play havoc with the other side. This is the only situation were tag is 100% effective at range. That said the issues with ECM, and BAP just make it worse.

[Pugastrius]

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TAG is the **** to ECM's diarrhea sh*t storm.

Please keep it constructive.

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Oh and ecm is also the scissors when in counter mode.

ECM on "Counter" is simply a paper to their paper, and that's only at close range. Neither side has an advantage at that point, but you still had a huge advantage from 180 meters and out (you were cloaked the entire walk in).

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Its more like ecm is paper, and tag is its hole-punch.

Probably the best analogy yet. TAG (even after a range boost) barely affects the team with the ECM, yet it eats up a hardpoint slot for the team with the TAG.

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Tag on an ECM equiped Mech doesnt allow that Mech to be detected so a scout with ecm

I intentionally left this out, because then the "Rock" to the ECM "Scissors" is... bring the "scissors" yourself but also bring a pebble.

Edited by Pugastrius, 10 December 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Nice thread and I'm glad to finally be seeing some good points from people other than myself being made about the horrible balance issues with the ECM.

I liked Rain's idea of adding a duration that persisted beyond when the Tag dropped, which could naturally be longer per amount of time they had the Tag on you. That would basically turn it into a NARC... except that you'd channel your duration up, not just 1shot pow it for a full blown hit or miss. It'd make a lot more sense that way and be more effective. Also, unlike the NARC, it would actually do something. Speaking of the NARC, make it do something! Also, make the BAP do something too!

Pugastrius, on 10 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Please keep it constructive.

Ya because all the other good ECM threads got the axe. I even salvaged some bad fanboy ones and then they got the axe too. It's "best behavior" time, everyone.

[Pugastrius]

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Nice thread and I'm glad to finally be seeing some good points from people other than myself being made about the horrible balance issues with the ECM.

The problem is it's really hard to come up with "Counter points" for how the ECM is not overpowered. I'm really surprised PGI has been so silent on this issue. Though they are probably keeping the answer close to their vest until the "Ask the Devs 28" is completed.

[Walk]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Give it a duration, instead of a persistent effect. So if you tag someone, and you lase off it, you still have X seconds.

It's already like that. You only have to sweep back and forth on a target to keep it tagged.

[Solis Obscuri]

Khobai, on 10 December 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

TAG is the **** to ECM's diarrhea sh*t storm.

TAG is the "lone square of TP left on the roll" to ECM's "five bowls of really spicy chili you ate after last night's bender".

And lagshield is "the undercover cop in the airport stall next to yours when you try to signal your need of assistance"...

[FrostPaw]

The only counter to ECM right now is another ECM, they even designed it this way, that's why it has two modes of usage.

[st1x]

I have an idea....

Why not give the PPC / ER PPC the ability to completely annul (spelt right, please read correctly folks) the ECM for 10 seconds when ever a hit is registered on an ECM equipped mech.

It's supposed to be able to disrupt your systems, so why not use what we have got?

Nic

[Nginear]

The easiest way I can see this fixed is to make the TAG laser a TRUE hard counter. Tag, at any range used on the ECM target, counters the ECM effect on the target.This means a scout humping an ECM Atlas can use tag to get his friends to light up the Atlas.

Try piloting a scout mech and maintain TAG on an ECM equipped mech at 200+ meters. Needless to say it is hard to keep the tag up, at distance, and keep alive.


Also. We need to drop the Paper-Rock-Scissors analogy. It gets cumbersome.

Rock - TAG
Scissors - ECM
Paper - Missile Lock?
Rock - Scouts
Paper - ???

ECM beats ranged targeting (IE BAP), which is supposed to be countered by TAG, which is originally designed to assist LRM's, which is designed to give indirect fire support for the Spotting Scout, which is equipping BAP to find the targets which counter with ECM.

This discussion should not be "X is designed to beat Y", but that is what it seems to have turned into to.

I do have to put my vote in :

NO. TAG is not the "Rock" to the ECM "Scissors". Not yet at least.

[Erasus Magnus]

Team Leader, on 10 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

There is none. They way ECM was implemented, it is too powerful for the cost you have to pay to get it on your mech. They should just let you put tag on your mech for 1 ton wherever you have guns.

would love to have a dedicated electronics slot in each mech. i would be aspecially pleased if it would be in the head, at leat for tag. imagine the atlas firing the tag laser from its right eye...damn that would be so dope...

resistance is futile!

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

The rock to the ECM scissors are an AC20, preferably to the face.

[Corvus Antaka]

ECM should not be negating locks outside the 180m bubble at all, it shouldnt be stealthing your teammates without at the very least a c3 linkup, and it most certainly shouldnt be stopping missiles from locking completely.

[Broceratops]

tag is the rock to the ecm's death star

edit:

worked for the ewoks though so i dunno

Edited by Broceratops, 10 December 2012 - 04:45 PM.