20 replies to this topic

[Typatty]

With the introduction of ECM, we now have specific mech variants that are the only ones able to field it. This thread is to give my feedback on the specific variants chosen.

Commando - Of the four variants, the 2D with its 3 missile hardpoints was clearly used the most due to the utility of three SSRM2s on a light mech. The 2D was already the most popular commando variant so with ECM it is now unmistakably the best choice. Where does this leave the other three variants in terms of utility? Choosing the already most-used variant to make it even better seems to accomplish two things:

Good: Making an already-good commando variant better means using a commando in general is a more attractive choice.
Bad: Putting ECM on the most-used commando variant means the other commando variants are even less attractive by comparison.
My Opinion: Makes sense, given that the commando chassis in general was laughable in combat compared to other lights. Unfortunately, that means one commando variant is glaringly better by leaps and bounds compared to the other three, reducing overall diversity in commando variant usage.

Raven - The three Raven variants all have attractive differences. The 4X has jump jets (ballistics too, but I find the jump jets much more useful), the 2X has additional energy hardpoints, and the 3L has a faster maximum engine. WIth the ECM placed on the 3L, arguably already the best Raven variant of the three, this leads to a problem dissimilar to the one faced by the commando chassis.

Good: ECM on the 3L makes the Raven a more attractive choice over the Jenner, which was generally the light of choice when ECM was not around.
Bad: The 3L already had the massive boon of having two missile hardpoints (for two SSRM2s) and having a maximum engine of 295. This placed it in a similar role to the Jenner, but with ECM on top of that, the advantages of the 3L make it similar to a Jenner with an extra ton of armor, similar speed, similar weaponry, but with ECM on top of it.
My Opinion: Put the ECM on the 2x instead of the 3L. This makes the Raven variants balanced in their own respects. This solves multiple issues. First, the 2X was already the weakest variant because an additional energy hardpoint or two is not equivalent in utility as jump jets or a faster engine and two missile hardpoints. Second, this allows the 3L to fulfill the same role as a Jenner, allows the 4X to be an excellent long-range scout with jumpjets, and the ECM on the 2X would make it useful in its own right by giving players an option to field a light mech that has ECM but is slower than a Commando with more armor. This allows for each Raven variant to be attractive in their own ways while keeping the ECM Raven from taking up the same role as an ECM Commando.

Cicada - The Cicada variants prior to ECM saw varied use, though generally most used either the 2A or the 3M. Though the 2B has the ability to aim vertically using arm-mounted weaponry, this does not generally translate to an advantage unless a player is using the 2B as a long-range sniper (as I do). If a player wants to make an energy-based Cicada build, it's better to choose the 2A because then you can benefit from the arms as shields which is generally much more useful than having vertical aiming. The 3M was used for anyone interested in making a fast mech with a single ballistic weapon.

Good: Putting the ECM on the 3M means players can experiment with a fast mech that can use ballistics and also field ECM.
Bad: The 3M was already popular for its ballistic hardpoint, and the 2B was really the one that needed love. This also means that players who previously used a 2A for a fast energy-based harrasser build could easily translate that to the 3M (I used a 5 medium laser build on the 2A, dropped a medium laser and made the same build on the 3M. Losing a medium laser in order to gain ECM makes the 3M a better choice than any build made on the 2A).
My Opinion: Put the ECM on the 2B. The 2A and 3M were already attractive choices in their own respects and the ECM on the 2B would mean one additional fast ECM mech with a unique role. The 2B could be used as a fast, long-range energy-based mech with ECM setting it apart from ECM Ravens and Commandos that generally engage at short/medium ranges. This also allows the 2A and 3M to be more hardy by comparison with their arm-shields, leaving the player to decide between electronic defense (ECM) or physical defense (arm-shields).

Atlas - Putting ECM on an assault mech was a bold and interesting move from PGI, particularly on the D-DC which makes a very effective brawler (a role the Atlas tends to excel at).
Good: Putting ECM on a heavier mech, particularly an assault mech, brings an entirely new element of group cohesiveness to play. It gives players a focal point to group around and move together, further emphasizing the role of assault mechs as leading the mass of the lance as everyone else supports and reinforces them.
Bad: The D-DC already has the advantage of having hardpoints that lend it to being the best brawler of the four Atlas variants. Unfortunately, an ECM on an assault brawler is a stronger advantage than ECM on an assault sniper, making the D-DC even more powerful from ECM. To demonstrate this point, imagine ECM on a long-range Atlas. The long-range Atlas benefits from ECM as a defensive measure and generally would not sacrifice range to engage in close-combat with long-range weapons just to disrupt the enemy with ECM. Likewise, if the enemy closes on the long-range Atlas then the ECM doesn't do much to defend it at that point. However, the ECM on a D-DC brawler functions as both defensive and offensive, keeping it safe from long-range weapons AS WELL AS disrupting enemies once it closes in to brawl. Notice you cannot circumnavigate the advantage a brawler Atlas gains from ECM the same way you can with a long-range Atlas.
My Opinion: Putting the ECM on any of the other three Atlas variants seems to be a much better choice and the D-DC excels so well at the iconic Atlas role that it would still be a very attractive variant without ECM. In particular, the Atlas-K comes to mind simply because it tends to do better at longer ranges and already needs some love compared to the other variants. However, that would make its double-AMS somewhat redundant, so putting the ECM on the Atlas-RS might make even more sense (especially given that the RS lacks a hardpoint that the D possesses to no apparent comparitive advantage).

[Shelgeyr]

I like your suggestions. They seem well thought-out and balanced.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Typatty, on 11 December 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

My Opinion: Putting the ECM on any of the other three Atlas variants seems to be a much better choice and the D-DC excels so well at the iconic Atlas role that it would still be a very attractive variant without ECM. In particular, the Atlas-K comes to mind simply because it tends to do better at longer ranges and already needs some love compared to the other variants. However, that would make its double-AMS somewhat redundant, so putting the ECM on the Atlas-RS might make even more sense (especially given that the RS lacks a hardpoint that the D possesses to no apparent comparitive advantage).

i had the same thaught and i agree, i felt the RS would benifit more from the addtion of ECM. making the chassis a little more desierable choice to the other 3 variants.

[Stingz]

Typatty, on 11 December 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

My Opinion: Put the ECM on the 2x instead of the 3L. This makes the Raven variants balanced in their own respects.

RVN-3L is literally built to have guardian ECM built-in, and you can't really change stock builds.

Allowing ECM on all Ravens is a better plan(Comm system refit, like Endo-Steel upgrades). Raising the speed cap on the other ravens to 3L speeds would help tons also.

Edited by Stingz, 11 December 2012 - 04:42 AM.

[StUffz]

I would not change the ECM part on Raven 3L since it is in with the basic configuration of the mech.

On Assaults I tend to remove it from all type since ECM is not canon with the given chasis.

[Typatty]

Stingz, on 11 December 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

RVN-3L is literally built to have guardian ECM built-in, and you can't really change stock builds.

Allowing ECM on all Ravens is a better plan(Comm system refit, like Endo-Steel upgrades). Raising the speed cap on the other ravens to 3L speeds would help tons also.

I agree that ECM on all of the Raven variants would be a great idea. My only concern is that the current ECM metagame (use a light mech with ECM and SSRM2s, counter other ECM mechs so you can take them out with SSRM2s) lends itself to the 3L excelling, though ECM on all Raven variants would certainly make the other variants seem much more viable in comparison to how it is currently in-game.

Edited by Typatty, 11 December 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[ilyha]

How could they be balanced? Some mechs with ECM are immune to rockets. Others - not.

To make them balanced there should be "Mirror paint" for 1/3 of mechs, and all lasers weapon will do 5% of damage to them. And "Uranium armor" or so for the last 1/3 of mechs - all ballistic weapon do zero damage to them.

This will make the situation balanced. Some mechs are immune to rockets, some - to lasers, some to balistic weapons.

[Kremator1968]

To the OP, you have only focussed on ECM and not taken everything else into account as ilyha has said. In a game DESIGNED to be rock,paper,scissors you will inevitably get some problems if your team don't work effectively together. The REAL solution is to see exactly WHAT mechs are being fielded against you so that you can plan tactics duringthe countdown phase. However THEN you will see the QQ if not given a total mech drop limit.

[Vashramire]

The only one I really have an issue with is the Atlas. Alone even it can ninja his way behind a group and rear core just about anything with 1 alpha. When I see an Atlas that I assume has an ECM, I can bet if he gets in range that I'll be hit with at least 60 damage (usually 3 srm6 and an AC20 at least plus their flavor of lasers). The other mechs I could care less if it was a chassis wide equipment. The "best" commando variant already has it so I doubt it would hurt too much if you gave it to the others. Though I do say best in regards to it being a great light hunter and essentially giving it ECM allows it to always be able to use its streaks. And you forgot to mention the Cicada 3C (though I find it to be a joke or Trollcada) but I can hardly blame you for that. We want to forget it too.

[ilyha]

Kremator1968, on 11 December 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

To the OP, you have only focussed on ECM and not taken everything else into account as ilyha has said. In a game DESIGNED to be rock,paper,scissors you will inevitably get some problems if your team don't work effectively together. The REAL solution is to see exactly WHAT mechs are being fielded against you so that you can plan tactics duringthe countdown phase. However THEN you will see the QQ if not given a total mech drop limit.

OK. Tell me what should "effective" "skilled" team with few mechs like Awesome-8R and no ECM do against enemy team with same skill and few ECM mechs.

[Typatty]

Kremator1968, on 11 December 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

To the OP, you have only focussed on ECM and not taken everything else into account as ilyha has said. In a game DESIGNED to be rock,paper,scissors you will inevitably get some problems if your team don't work effectively together. The REAL solution is to see exactly WHAT mechs are being fielded against you so that you can plan tactics duringthe countdown phase. However THEN you will see the QQ if not given a total mech drop limit.

ECM does not function based on 'rock/paper/scissors' logic. To beat ECM you need to counter ECM. To counter ECM you need ECM. Also, I think it is fair when we are discussing mech design to talk about the comparable advantages and disadvantages a player encurs from choosing which variants to field.

[Rip Calkin]

The -DC Atlas, however, was very specifically designed with a Command Console... this places it quite squarely in the role of 'command unit' on a battlefield, which lends the chassis well to the role of 'electronics warfare unit'. Frankly, I think it was fittingly placed, on that chassis. Still, the suggestion of placing it on the -RS model is an interesting one, from the standpoint of taking a sub-par variant and bringing it up to par with the others.

For the lighter chasses that sport ECM, however, I do like the suggestions the OP made about which mechs should have the ECM, instead of the ones that currently do. Having only one 'viable' choice for any of the three chasses eliminates variety in the game, and lack of variety hurts the 'fun factor' of the game.

ilyha, on 11 December 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

How could they be balanced? Some mechs with ECM are immune to rockets. Others - not.

To make them balanced there should be "Mirror paint" for 1/3 of mechs, and all lasers weapon will do 5% of damage to them. And "Uranium armor" or so for the last 1/3 of mechs - all ballistic weapon do zero damage to them.

This will make the situation balanced. Some mechs are immune to rockets, some - to lasers, some to balistic weapons.

To be bluntly honest, this is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen...

[Syllogy]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

I would not change the ECM part on Raven 3L since it is in with the basic configuration of the mech.

On Assaults I tend to remove it from all type since ECM is not canon with the given chasis.

The Atlas does have variants that are canon to carry an ECM.

Regardless, refusing to carry a useful tool simply because you believe that it is not canon is a mindboggler to me.

If that were the case, it sounds like you would simply run stock variants with no improvement or changes on any chassis just because its "canon".

[ilyha]

Rip Calkin, on 11 December 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

To be bluntly honest, this is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen...

I'm completely agree! This idea just shows, that now ECM works like the same stupid idea as mirror paint etc, making some mech types immune to other mech types.

Edited by ilyha, 11 December 2012 - 06:39 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

ilyha, on 11 December 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'm completely agree! This idea just shows, that now ECM works like the same stupid idea as mirror paint etc, making some mech types immune to other mech types.

Except, your talking about once damage is applied to a mech... just because missiles can't lock on an ECM doesn't mean its immune to missile damage... most notably SRMs...

[Corvus Antaka]

Jenner, get jumped by an ECM commando. My streaks are now useless, commando has lagshield, no knockdowns - bad and unfun gameplay experiences

[Stingz]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Jenner, get jumped by an ECM commando. My streaks are now useless, commando has lagshield, no knockdowns - bad and unfun gameplay experiences

Regular SRMs still work, and ECM is supposed to make Streaks fire as regular SRM.

[Typatty]

Stingz, on 11 December 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Regular SRMs still work, and ECM is supposed to make Streaks fire as regular SRM.

Streak SRM + lagshield > SRM + lagshield. Every time.

[Star Witch Esperanza]

the trouble with the the D-DC having ECM definately becomes apparent when the opposition brings multiple d-dcs.

In the case of a pug: you probably didnt bring D-DCS. and probably didnt bring enough ECM, and god help you if you anyone dropped with streaks.

in the case of a 4 man premade: non D-DCs atlas variants and awesomes have become less attractive. A coordinated 4 man with ECM can pub stomp all day and night.edit: 4 d-dcs that know what they're doing are pretty unstoppable.

in the case of 8 vs 8: people are coordinated enough to smash mechs with ECM first the easy solution to this problem is to just bring as many d-dcs as possible, as it is already one of the best atlas variants, this way you always have enough to counter enemy ecm and you dont have to worry about losing your ecm advantage too quickly.

Edited by Nephera, 11 December 2012 - 11:05 PM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

I would not change the ECM part on Raven 3L since it is in with the basic configuration of the mech.

On Assaults I tend to remove it from all type since ECM is not canon with the given chasis.

ECM how its implemented ingame now is not canon.Deal with it.

BTW I just killed cataphract with my ECM commando which I bought yesterday and it was my 10-15th game...so yea ECM is so balanced

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 11 December 2012 - 11:30 PM.