109 replies to this topic

[verybad]

It definately has a cool sound.

Now I wonder if I could take 6 on a crazy Stalker loadout, just use 3 normally, but occasionally do one full alpha. Then sitting arround shutdown for 30 seconds...I'll be getting a Stalker (or 3) so this might work for some laughs. It would be a fun Alpha at the right time.

Might be able to manage 5 heatsinks after the weapons tonnage

I WANT to like the LPL, I think perhaps increasing the recharge and reducing the beam firing time both a bit mroe might be the ticket. /Not certain.

[Roland]

People... look at the stats. Compare the LPL to the ML.

Medium Laser:
Range - 270
Damage - 5
Heat - 4
Weight - 1

Large Pulse Laser
Range - 300
Damage - 10
Heat - 9
Weight 7

If you have the hardpoints, then you can basically take 2 medium lasers, and have something which is BETTER than the LPL in essentially every way. Same damage, roughly the same range... only 90% of the heat... only 30% of the weight.

Making minor tweaks to the LPL will not make it even close to usable. You need to make some significant changes... the most important probably being its weight, and perhaps its heat.

[DivineEvil]

The solution is to grand additional damage multiplier based on the damage dealt to each mech section. So, for example, if LPL deals 10 damage in 0,75 seconds and it is calculated in 5 phases 0,15s and 2 damage each, then you recieve 5% bonus damage for each phase landed per location, starting from 2. If you've managed to land the whole beam to right torso, then you recieve 25% damage bonus on it (+2,5 damage), but if you landed 2 phases on CT, 2 phases on LT and last one gone to LA, then CT and LT just suffer 1 additional damage. You can mess with the numbers, but you've got the idea. Goes with the canon and repays for the additional fatigue. Same bonus for SPLs and MPLs would make this weapon type quite distinctive.

[verybad]

Weight isn't a player in this. I think just give it a really good recharge and short beam time, but make it a HeatHo.

[Soy]

I take it some players aren't really into torso twisting to spread damage? It's as if some people on the forums don't actually play the game and just make theorycraft like lil Einsteins.

I don't always brawl,
but when I do,
I brawl with LPL.

~ The Most Interesting Laserboat In The World

Edited by Soy, 11 December 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

xenoglyph, on 11 December 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

LPL requires less skill, so you pay a tax in the form of weight, heat, and range nerfs.

LLs are a formidable weapon, especially in the hands of a pilot with steady aim.

I think it's fine how it is.

LPLs are far FAR off what they should be, otherwise you would see more people choosing to use it.

the weight of the thing is one of the major issues.

7 tons for 300 range and massive heat simply isnt worth it over medium lasers.

[Orzorn]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

People... look at the stats. Compare the LPL to the ML.

Medium Laser:
Range - 270
Damage - 5
Heat - 4
Weight - 1

Large Pulse Laser
Range - 300
Damage - 10
Heat - 9
Weight 7

If you have the hardpoints, then you can basically take 2 medium lasers, and have something which is BETTER than the LPL in essentially every way. Same damage, roughly the same range... only 90% of the heat... only 30% of the weight.

Making minor tweaks to the LPL will not make it even close to usable. You need to make some significant changes... the most important probably being its weight, and perhaps its heat.

As someone else pointed out, you can't always make hardpoint specific comparisons like that. Some mechs might only have the room to mount 1 energy weapon (either overall or in a location that they need that weapon, like in the arm).

Large pulse lasers need less heat, and probably a shorter beam duration. That helped large lasers out pretty well and I'd considering large lasers to be definitely viable right now.

Small pulse lasers also desperately need help. They aren't even close to viable.

[Sp3ctre18]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

People... look at the stats. Compare the LPL to the ML.

Medium Laser:
Range - 270
Damage - 5
Heat - 4
Weight - 1

Large Pulse Laser
Range - 300
Damage - 10
Heat - 9
Weight 7

But they don't depict "real-lfe" use unless you include recycle time, beam duration, etc.

As others have said, we can't change tonnage and crits; that's set, canon stuff. You can balane with the other stats.

Although the OP wanted to make this a comparison between LL and LPL, you simply can't. They're not similar enough just because they the word "large" in them. The reasons for considering an LL (or better, erLL) is NOT the same as my reasons for considering an LPL - which as others have pointed out, makes more sense to compare with MLAS.

Through all my MechWarrior history, I have rarely use pulse lasers other than MPLs. But I DO have LPL in many configs; I try to match weapon ranges, so if I have some autocannons that are around the range of the LPLs, THAT'S when I'll choose LPLs, since I can choose to use LPL or ACs to manage my heat while at the same range. And that's where recycle time of LPL matters: availability.

[Roland]

Quote

As others have said, we can't change tonnage and crits; that's set, canon stuff.

Er... you can change tonnage. There is no such thing as "set" stuff.

If you want to leave tonnage the same, so be it, but then that means you need to give it a significant damage boost. Because currently, its damage to weight ratio is terribad.

The LPL is currently a really heavy, really hot, medium laser.

[Orzorn]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Er... you can change tonnage. There is no such thing as "set" stuff.

If you want to leave tonnage the same, so be it, but then that means you need to give it a significant damage boost. Because currently, its damage to weight ratio is terribad.

The LPL is currently a really heavy, really hot, medium laser.

Changing tonnage would open a floodgate of future issues.

Its best to just alter the weapon until its worth is in line with its weight. A 7 ton weapon should be worth its 7 tons. The fact that the 15 ton gauss is worth it and does 15 damage is enough to show that factors like heat make a huge difference.

Altering the LPL's heat and perhaps giving it additional range (350?) would go a long way to making the weapon justifiable. I think it also needs a burn time decrease. Currently, it isn't so much of a pulse laser as its comrades.

Edited by Orzorn, 11 December 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[Sp3ctre18]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Er... you can change tonnage. There is no such thing as "set" stuff.

I would disagree, though I can't claim to be perfectly knowledgeable. I've never played the TT, but as far as i know, the games are always based off the rules for the TT.

So while I can only Speak of the MechWarrior games and what I remember from reading on weapon stats on the rule books and websites like sarna.net there are set tonnages, and I have many memorized as they have been consistent.

Thus, what I DO know is that LL is 5 tons, LPL is 7. Always.

I agree with you on the rest

[TruePoindexter]

LPL and PPC are in my view interchangeable. Which is the better choice depends on purpose. I've had great success with LPL as brawling weapons. The rate at which the beam transmits damage is very fast and you can pile on the precise hurt in a hurry. Overall though they have lower DPS and a much shorter range. PPC's deal all their damage up front and have a much longer range but of course have a minimum range and are not beams of doom.

Horses for courses. Also the LPL are smaller so there's that too.

[Pale Jackal]

Reducing their heat to 7 (a reduction of 2) would be enough, IMO.

That way you have a weapon that does ~11% more damage, has about 8% faster recycle time, and does more concentrated damage. About 20% more DPS, and 33% more concentrated damage.

Downside: 2 more tons, and reduced range. However, 2 tons isn't a 40% weight increase, since you also need to factor in heatsink weight when calculating the real tonnage cost of a weapon, especially if you're boating energy weapons. So the tonnage cost isn't actually a 40% increase, and in some builds, you have free tonnage (I know my laser-boat C1 with Endo Steel has tonnage to spare, just lacks crits. Unfortunately, I need Endo Steel if I want my C1 to be an effective missile-boat.)

Of course, reducing the recycle time by a large amount (1 second) might save you tonnage because then you have to mount less weapons for equivalent DPS.

PGI, just do SOMETHING with the LPL.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 11 December 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Kommisar]

Heat is the mind... errrr... mech killer.

Brawls are decided primarily by three factors. How much damage can you pump out, for how long, and how well placed. (yea, Duh).

The Large Pulse Laser can but out a decent amount of damage and can be well placed; but no mech can keep up a credible rate of fire with this weapon. Even an Atlas mounting one of these, with the rest of his mech loaded with heat sinks, would stil have to watch and manage his heat. So, this weapon is best suited for delivering a finishing/crippling blow. Problem is, so are AC/10s, AC/20's, Guass Rifles, PPCs and, even the Large Laser. All of which are going to be better choices. Autocannons produce less heat and hit one location (though the 20 may not be any more from what I have read and experienced). PPCs have better range. Finally, the large laser beats it across the board save for 1 less damage assuming you are a half way decent shot.

It is beat out as a long brawl weapon by SRMs and medium lasers. With the right build, you can keep up a steady pace of damage output with those weapons. Even the large laser, though to a lesser degree. AC/5s and UAC/5s just blow it out of the water if you can lead a target.

The only build I have found use for the LPL was a very fast Dragon I had for a while in Closed Beta. I maxed his speed and mounted 2 of them with a bunch of heat sinks. Eventually, however, I ended up trying and moving to x4 medium pulse lasers instead. I wasn't using the extra range much and liked the longer output times (heat) of the mediums.

I suspect that this is system will remain one of marginal to less than marginal weapon systems till the clans show up with thier improved version.

[Soy]

Kommisar, on 11 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Heat is the mind... errrr... mech killer.

Brawls are decided primarily by three factors. How much damage can you pump out, for how long, and how well placed.

You must brawl differently than me. Brawls are decided by who can actually aim and core efficiently, not how much damage you can pump out and for how long. Repeatedly staring at a guy for a full second straight on while channeling lasers is basically deadly against superior firepower in a brawl. Pulses, particularly M and L, can really alleviate some of this if you adapt your brawling style to them. Twisting to spread damage from a LPL is the reason why could be considered strong for brawling, .25 on the firing duration can be a lifesafer; just enough time to swing that arm into a gauss round that was looking for your heart which would've nailed you if you're channeling full sec weps like MLs or LLs...

I think you have the concept backwards, like when you mention your Dragon - which is fast enough to simple strafe snipe in the middle of an open field if it feels like it with a LL, channeling the extra tenths of a second on the firing duration is nothing if you are moving 90-105kph 400 meters out. Can't do that with a LPL. (Of course Strike calvalry manuevers with Dragon + LPL are a blast though ^^)

Edited by Soy, 11 December 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Pulse lasers big mechanic in TT is that they have a bonus to-hit.
In MWO this is implemented as a shorter beam duration, which is only marginally helpful.

I suggest making the beam duration really really darn short, so you're actually paying the tonnage/heat/range for something worthwhile. (Say .125s for small pulses, and .25s for medium and large pulses perhaps?)

[Sp3ctre18]

Kommisar, on 11 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I suspect that this is system will remain one of marginal to less than marginal weapon systems till the clans show up with thier improved version.

I think the LPL has always been a weapon that many a mechwarrior has had a hard time deciding how and when to choose and use it.

[TruePoindexter]

One Medic Army, on 11 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Pulse lasers big mechanic in TT is that they have a bonus to-hit.
In MWO this is implemented as a shorter beam duration, which is only marginally helpful.

I suggest making the beam duration really really darn short, so you're actually paying the tonnage/heat/range for something worthwhile. (Say .125s for small pulses, and .25s for medium and large pulses perhaps?)

The shorter duration is surprisingly helpful when fighting faster targets. Any kind of pulse laser tends to work much better than regular lasers in that situation. In standing fight the .25s shorter duration is less helpful.

[Kommisar]

I've seen a lot of guys swining their torsos around, back and forth. Unless I am on Forest Colony and have a "Globe of Darkness" debuff effect on me (the black, blinding smoke from multiple hits) I can typically keep my large laser shots right on target as they wiggle or swing back and forth. Then I time my SRMs and AC/5 fire for when they stop to return fire and hit them just before they get their shot off for some extra knock.

As for maintaining your output of damage, can you honestly argue that the AC/5s and UAC/5s are not just rocking the brawl for the very reason that you can pump out rounds as fast as you want without worrying about heat? If you are in a brawl, having to wait a good 10 seconds for your heat to disipate is not a good thing in any scenario. You can survive it, yes. But you are always better off being able to fire more.

Now, I did say that aim was a factor. And how much damage you can pump out effectively is also a factor. After all, I don't see any Atlases relying on one medium laser alone in their fights; even if they can always hit what they aim for with that one weapon.

Edited by Kommisar, 11 December 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

TruePoindexter, on 11 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

LPL and PPC are in my view interchangeable. Which is the better choice depends on purpose. I've had great success with LPL as brawling weapons. The rate at which the beam transmits damage is very fast and you can pile on the precise hurt in a hurry. Overall though they have lower DPS and a much shorter range. PPC's deal all their damage up front and have a much longer range but of course have a minimum range and are not beams of doom.

Horses for courses. Also the LPL are smaller so there's that too.

You are fooling yourself if you think youve had great success with the LPL as brawling weapons...They are > Medium Lasers only in that they take up one less weapon hardpoint, but 2 mediums > LPL by far, at the range they are most commonly used at. They extra 5 tons you save is 5 more tons of heatsinks.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 11 December 2012 - 12:39 PM.