While the issue of the " Betaness" of this game is debateable, I can't count how many times I have bought a " ready " game only to realize I had purchased a beta.
Patch after patch with the inevitable giving up by the devs as a new financial quater rolls around and new games are to be released.
Remember Total War series....??? Not only do you have to wait for the game...but serious players would wait till the community mods came out and suffered with vanilla plying till then....
I too have dropped more money than on any other game, I just hope the devs utilize thier revenue flow wisely for th sake of the game ( meaning hire a lead programmer ).
1
Do People Not Know This Is Beta?
Started by Ghoststeel, Dec 11 2012 07:33 AM
416 replies to this topic
#62
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:35 AM
soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:
it doesnt matter until it comes out , its not like you can practice it or anything.
Im sure there will be a video or a write up by pgi as it gets near or day of release.
Im sure there will be a video or a write up by pgi as it gets near or day of release.
Lol it's not about practice! It's about learning about new features of a game.
#63
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:36 AM
I suspect a lot of people just chose to ignore the fact that open beta IS beta and thus means testing phase.
The argument you often hear is that after all PGI started to charge money (which technically isn't true as it is free to play and you do not have to pay a single dollar to play the game) and thus the game can't still be in testing phase because you only charge for finished products.
What those people miss to see (again I'm sure quite some people just chose to ignore it) is that a micropayment system needs to be tested too. PGI was lucky that it worked almost flawlessly right of the bat on the technical side; I've seen otherwise in other games and it would be stupid to wait until official release to see if it's working or not. What they now can do is gather info if their pricing works, while they complete the game.
The argument you often hear is that after all PGI started to charge money (which technically isn't true as it is free to play and you do not have to pay a single dollar to play the game) and thus the game can't still be in testing phase because you only charge for finished products.
What those people miss to see (again I'm sure quite some people just chose to ignore it) is that a micropayment system needs to be tested too. PGI was lucky that it worked almost flawlessly right of the bat on the technical side; I've seen otherwise in other games and it would be stupid to wait until official release to see if it's working or not. What they now can do is gather info if their pricing works, while they complete the game.
#64
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:40 AM
Jason Parker, on 11 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:
I suspect a lot of people just chose to ignore the fact that open beta IS beta and thus means testing phase.
The argument you often hear is that after all PGI started to charge money (which technically isn't true as it is free to play and you do not have to pay a single dollar to play the game) and thus the game can't still be in testing phase because you only charge for finished products.
What those people miss to see (again I'm sure quite some people just chose to ignore it) is that a micropayment system needs to be tested too. PGI was lucky that it worked almost flawlessly right of the bat on the technical side; I've seen otherwise in other games and it would be stupid to wait until official release to see if it's working or not. What they now can do is gather info if their pricing works, while they complete the game.
The argument you often hear is that after all PGI started to charge money (which technically isn't true as it is free to play and you do not have to pay a single dollar to play the game) and thus the game can't still be in testing phase because you only charge for finished products.
What those people miss to see (again I'm sure quite some people just chose to ignore it) is that a micropayment system needs to be tested too. PGI was lucky that it worked almost flawlessly right of the bat on the technical side; I've seen otherwise in other games and it would be stupid to wait until official release to see if it's working or not. What they now can do is gather info if their pricing works, while they complete the game.
Then technically MWO could exist forever, and PGI could continue to claim that it is a Beta.
The game will never be done, because new mechs and tech will always be added.
Edited by Purlana, 11 December 2012 - 08:41 AM.
#65
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:41 AM
soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:
thye are not forcing you to buy anything.
this is true in a retail game.
but this is a beta right?
IMHO making folks pay real money to TEST beta items is wrong on so many levels.
the game itself is obviously in a beta state, yet PGI is treating it like it is retail.
kinda hard to properly beta test hero meks when they cost more then 20USD.
#66
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:42 AM
Being in the software industry, "Beta" has become a looser and looser term over the ages, making a true determination based on industry standard a bit difficult to establish in many cases. Much like George Orwell's famous book "1984", terminology can be changed to mean different things over time (war is peace, love is hate, release is beta, etc.).
Calling something "beta" is generally regarded as saying the product is not feature-complete. For an online game (or any MMO, for that matter), there is never a stage of "feature complete", thus there is a fallacy on a dynamically-based development platform where things are never "finished". Technically, every MMO or online title ever made was in beta, by that definition.
In the gaming world (even for online games), it can be considered "release" when a gold disc is created of the game files which usually start around version 1.0, and that game is considered "a shippable release", meaning it can be packaged for sale at the local game store. This becomes more difficult when no "disc" is present, but even with online distribution, this is widely regarded as the version shipped to the publisher which has been reviewed, and approved for distribution and sale.
MWO is widely regarded by both naysayers and yea-sayers as being "done" when Community Warfare gets introduced - the Meta-game, as it were. The reason for blowing up all these robots. This also, by default, includes the following features noted by the devs as being what they are working toward for "release":
As a developer, I think it a fallacy to state that this game is in beta for one reason: Very few (if any) games in actual beta take money from the customer as if it were a finished product. This does not include donations (such as Project: Eternity or Kickstarter style funding).
If you do a donation, the company so donated to has no real obligation or contract to provide the service so promised, should the company go bankrupt, etc. but, are under an obligation certainly by the community to provide the promised product. Should they not provide it, the game development company would most likely never get business again, and even the main developers on the project would have a hard time from there on out (most likely even finding a job, due to the stigma associated by the consumer base, possibly incorrectly).
Now, how does this apply here? Donations aside (and I consider the founder's a "donation"), if the cash shop were being "tested" in "beta", the accounts being created would just be credited each patch with a certain amount, or, if RMT were to be tested (the case here, per the developer's posts) and polished, then the MC thus purchased would be re-credited once the finished product was finalized.
Most pro-PGI people will pooh-pooh this. There will be precedents pointed to other F2P titles. Indeed, it already has earlier in this thread. The point being missed here is that, in any industry, very rarely is money taken for an unfinished product unless the product was being hand-made to customer specifications, and in this case, a deliverable date is usually adhered to quite strictly. Again, such dates slip in the software industry as a norm due to technical difficulties. Rarely, however, is such a product beta-tested unless it is basically feature complete, and almost never to a larger base of customers (we're talking custom shop jobs, for example, for a large corporation) until it is ready for release.
Granted, this is all from my slant on the matter, and I'm sure many others more knowledgeable can debunk my ideas on this matter (be it in succinct "you are clueless" posts or more lengthy diatrabes with personal anectodes of their work or some other game which did the same), but I stick to my basic idea on the matter, which is simply:
If you're charging money for a recurring service, that service is no longer a "beta".
Nota Bene: This is not an Anti-PGI rant, or saying they suck. The industry as a whole is generally fuzzy on the beta terminology, and I sought to share my thoughts regarding the matter. These are my opinions, and no one need subscribe to them. And, as my concept is so fundamental, I don't see that someone can change my mind about the matter, so don't try to "convince" me.
I believe PGI is doing a decent job at development, and that, given time, we shall see if they hold to their development promises and whatnot. I do have minor issues with their balancing ideas and feel the approach is incorrect, but I don't expect them to make the game exactly the way I "want" it. As long as they don't make the balancing unplayable, I shall play.
Calling something "beta" is generally regarded as saying the product is not feature-complete. For an online game (or any MMO, for that matter), there is never a stage of "feature complete", thus there is a fallacy on a dynamically-based development platform where things are never "finished". Technically, every MMO or online title ever made was in beta, by that definition.
In the gaming world (even for online games), it can be considered "release" when a gold disc is created of the game files which usually start around version 1.0, and that game is considered "a shippable release", meaning it can be packaged for sale at the local game store. This becomes more difficult when no "disc" is present, but even with online distribution, this is widely regarded as the version shipped to the publisher which has been reviewed, and approved for distribution and sale.
MWO is widely regarded by both naysayers and yea-sayers as being "done" when Community Warfare gets introduced - the Meta-game, as it were. The reason for blowing up all these robots. This also, by default, includes the following features noted by the devs as being what they are working toward for "release":
- 12 or so maps
- 3 game modes (assault, conquest, dropship mutator)
- 18 or so IS mechs
- Weapon balancing
- Cash shop
- T2 tech
- Finalized matchmaking
- Statistics
As a developer, I think it a fallacy to state that this game is in beta for one reason: Very few (if any) games in actual beta take money from the customer as if it were a finished product. This does not include donations (such as Project: Eternity or Kickstarter style funding).
If you do a donation, the company so donated to has no real obligation or contract to provide the service so promised, should the company go bankrupt, etc. but, are under an obligation certainly by the community to provide the promised product. Should they not provide it, the game development company would most likely never get business again, and even the main developers on the project would have a hard time from there on out (most likely even finding a job, due to the stigma associated by the consumer base, possibly incorrectly).
Now, how does this apply here? Donations aside (and I consider the founder's a "donation"), if the cash shop were being "tested" in "beta", the accounts being created would just be credited each patch with a certain amount, or, if RMT were to be tested (the case here, per the developer's posts) and polished, then the MC thus purchased would be re-credited once the finished product was finalized.
Most pro-PGI people will pooh-pooh this. There will be precedents pointed to other F2P titles. Indeed, it already has earlier in this thread. The point being missed here is that, in any industry, very rarely is money taken for an unfinished product unless the product was being hand-made to customer specifications, and in this case, a deliverable date is usually adhered to quite strictly. Again, such dates slip in the software industry as a norm due to technical difficulties. Rarely, however, is such a product beta-tested unless it is basically feature complete, and almost never to a larger base of customers (we're talking custom shop jobs, for example, for a large corporation) until it is ready for release.
Granted, this is all from my slant on the matter, and I'm sure many others more knowledgeable can debunk my ideas on this matter (be it in succinct "you are clueless" posts or more lengthy diatrabes with personal anectodes of their work or some other game which did the same), but I stick to my basic idea on the matter, which is simply:
If you're charging money for a recurring service, that service is no longer a "beta".
Nota Bene: This is not an Anti-PGI rant, or saying they suck. The industry as a whole is generally fuzzy on the beta terminology, and I sought to share my thoughts regarding the matter. These are my opinions, and no one need subscribe to them. And, as my concept is so fundamental, I don't see that someone can change my mind about the matter, so don't try to "convince" me.
I believe PGI is doing a decent job at development, and that, given time, we shall see if they hold to their development promises and whatnot. I do have minor issues with their balancing ideas and feel the approach is incorrect, but I don't expect them to make the game exactly the way I "want" it. As long as they don't make the balancing unplayable, I shall play.
Edited by Lanessar, 11 December 2012 - 08:49 AM.
#67
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:44 AM
Purlana, on 11 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:
Then technically MWO could exist forever, and PGI could continue to claim that it is a Beta.
The game will never be done, because new mechs and tech will always be added.
so does that mean warcraft is still beta since they release new classes/quests raids?
#68
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:45 AM
Can it really be called a beta if people are paying to play it?
#69
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:45 AM
Probably the better question is "do people care its beta?" obviously not.
#70
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:45 AM
Gregore, on 11 December 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:
Can it really be called a beta if people are paying to play it?
you do not have to pay a dime to play this.. sigh
#71
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:47 AM
soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:
so does that mean warcraft is still beta since they release new classes/quests raids?
It means WoW is not "finished" or "complete", and it never will be until the day they close the servers.
People need to stop claiming that a game needs to be "complete" in order for it to be "live" or "released".
Edited by Purlana, 11 December 2012 - 08:48 AM.
#72
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:48 AM
Yes it is!! No it's not!! Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!! Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!Yes it is!! No it's not!!
MOMMY!!!!!!!!
MOMMY!!!!!!!!
#73
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:49 AM
Jason Parker, on 11 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:
What those people miss to see (again I'm sure quite some people just chose to ignore it) is that a micropayment system needs to be tested too. PGI was lucky that it worked almost flawlessly right of the bat on the technical side; I've seen otherwise in other games and it would be stupid to wait until official release to see if it's working or not. What they now can do is gather info if their pricing works, while they complete the game.
go check the player support section - lots of us are / were having problems with the system not accepting payments as well
even the payments system HAS needed testing so that they can get an idea on the scale of the level of support they'll need for that as well
Edited by Apoc1138, 11 December 2012 - 08:50 AM.
#74
Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:53 AM
There are known issues with Playspan that other games have also had. =(
Apoc1138, on 11 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:
go check the player support section - lots of us are / were having problems with the system not accepting payments as well
even the payments system HAS needed testing so that they can get an idea on the scale of the level of support they'll need for that as well
even the payments system HAS needed testing so that they can get an idea on the scale of the level of support they'll need for that as well
#75
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:53 AM
Well all this crap doesnt matter anyway, end of the world is in 9 days, 7 hours
#76
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:53 AM
soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:
so does that mean warcraft is still beta since they release new classes/quests raids?
the original world of warcraft was a released boxed product that you HAD to buy the box to be able to play
each of the new add ons they release is also a seperate boxed product (or downloaded paid for product)
MWO is free to play... yes you CAN buy things within the game, but you aren't paying JUST to play the game... small distinction maybe
for a free to play game, the release date is whatever the devs say it is, if you are making pre-payments because you want to have stuff already set-up when the game does go to full release then that is your choice but it doesn't grant you special status to be making demands on what the devs do in the meantime
Edited by Apoc1138, 11 December 2012 - 08:56 AM.
#77
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:54 AM
and warcraft didnt come with warzones, they were added. So must have been beta at release
#78
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:56 AM
soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:
and warcraft didnt come with warzones, they were added. So must have been beta at release
PGI is no Blizzard either. Not by a longshot.
Edited by Lonestar1771, 11 December 2012 - 08:56 AM.
#79
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:56 AM
Not beta.
Doesn't matter how hard they pretend. It's released.
Doesn't matter how hard they pretend. It's released.
#80
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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:58 AM
If it were actually a beta-quality piece of software, in a beta stage of development, people wouldn't chuckle every time someone says "It's Beta!". It's a buggy, incomplete game that outside of the PGI reality bubble would be considered in the alpha stage of development. Certainly nothing you'd want to let the public see or play.
I can staple 4 extra legs to a dog and call it an octopus, but it doesn't actually make it an octopus. And you won't find anyone who actually knows what an octopus is saying, "Look, it's an octopus!".
The problem is, they've put a sign up that says, "Come see the octopus!" and for an extra $5 you can get your picture taken with it.
What many people who have some amount of experience with the real world are concerned about is the long term viability of such a strategy. Added to the fact that PGI is a second/third tier development house that has never produced a game you could consider better than mediocre, at best, there's some worry that they actually think it's an octopus.
I can staple 4 extra legs to a dog and call it an octopus, but it doesn't actually make it an octopus. And you won't find anyone who actually knows what an octopus is saying, "Look, it's an octopus!".
The problem is, they've put a sign up that says, "Come see the octopus!" and for an extra $5 you can get your picture taken with it.
What many people who have some amount of experience with the real world are concerned about is the long term viability of such a strategy. Added to the fact that PGI is a second/third tier development house that has never produced a game you could consider better than mediocre, at best, there's some worry that they actually think it's an octopus.
Edited by Lin Shai, 11 December 2012 - 09:02 AM.
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