36 replies to this topic

[Kraven Kor]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I cannot believe I'm having to repeat this - because the Phract has more utility and is still capable of sustained brawling whereas a Hunch is reduced to strikes/assassinations at that point...

I've also repeated that the Jagermech is a beast with ballistics and if someone is a monster with them then they will most likely exploit the potential hardpoint layouts of Jagers unlike anything we've experienced yet in MWO... however it will not maintain the brawl capability ala armor of the Phract nor the mobility utility if no variant has JJs...

I really have nothing else to say about this, I think I've made it clear at this point what my opinions are and don't feel like clarifying them for people who think you snipe with a Phract via arms or is quoting something directed at someone else entirely for some other random tangent.

Yeah, the Jager is going to be horrible at brawling. Worse than the phract by far, at least.

It will be the king of fire support, most likely, though the K-2 and Cataphract will still be used as well for the different loadouts and strengths / weaknesses.

[Zerbob]

The Cataphract is most often designed as a brawler while the Jagermech excels as long range ballistics support (and/or sniping).

The Cataphract has low arms and high chest slots (typically energy). It's often slow, but also packs a lot of armour. The high armour, high damage output of the Cataphract is what makes it a good brawler. It can dish out a lot of damage and take a lot of damage; in essence it's a 30 ton smaller Atlas.

The JagerMech is faster, has high mounted ballistic weapons (meaning it can shoot better from behind cover) and fewer arm actuators (meaning more crit clots available for use). However what makes it less ideal for brawling is its lower armour. The JagerMech is meant to sit back from the fighting and rain shells on its target, not be in the thick of the fight where it'll rapidly find itself without arms or weapons.


The difference is a preference in play style. If you want to be in the thick of the fight, go Cataphract. If you want to sit back and make it rain, go JagerMech.

[TruePoindexter]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

You literally compared the Hunchback in the exact same situation that I have repeatedly stated the Phract is capable of doing as well. Are you unaware that it has shoulder points like the Hunch? 3d snipes from shoulders, not arms.

PPS - If previous statement is true, then how then does a Hunchback have as much sniper utility in a similar layout without JJs compared to a poptartable 3d... O.o

It depends on weapons. Like I said the exception to the low weapon mounts on the Cataphract are the shoulder energy hard points which when loaded with heavy energy weapons can function similarly. The fact is that the bulk of the hard points are at or below cockpit level which means you must expose up to that point to fire. Give me a second and I'll have some images up explaining what I mean.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Kraven Kor, on 11 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

The Jagermech is, basically, the Rifleman.

The loadouts are almost identical. Though I still liked the Rifleman better (5 tons be 5 tons yo.)

The Rifleman is 60 tons, the Jagermech is 65. 5 tons is 5 tons

[TruePoindexter]

TruePoindexter, on 11 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

It depends on weapons. Like I said the exception to the low weapon mounts on the Cataphract are the shoulder energy hard points which when loaded with heavy energy weapons can function similarly. The fact is that the bulk of the hard points are at or below cockpit level which means you must expose up to that point to fire. Give me a second and I'll have some images up explaining what I mean.

Here we go - visual examples.

Amount of cover needed to snipe on the Jagermech:



Cover required for the Hunchback to fire from cover using the Shoulder:




Finally the amount of cover required for the Cataphract to fire it's non-shoulder weapons:



I hope that makes it clear!

[Soy]

No, Poin...



With JJs.......

Edited by Soy, 11 December 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[Grimlox]

What is it that makes the Jager so much less of a brawler? I would usually sacrifice 5 tons on a mech for increased speed with everything else being equal in most brawls.

Is there a significant armour difference that is more than the 5 ton difference would lead on?

[TruePoindexter]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

No, Poin...



With JJs.......

And I've said that those shoulder mounts are the exception. Most of us however are not only mounting dual ER Large/PPCs though when we have 2-3-4 ballistic mounts down below.

[SpiralRazor]

Trying to use the Torso mounted weapons in the Cataphract is cringe worthy.


The whole point of the Jagermech is to have the main guns way high up and be a walking gun turret, well away from the brawling...

[Lykaon]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

The Jagermech is 5 tons lighter, and carries no JJ's.

Most artwork for it suggests that it lacks lower arm actuators, which would mean that it could mount AC20's in its arms.

The Jaeger mech doesin fact lack lower arm actuators allowing for AC 20s to be placed into the arms.This will of course allow for the use of XL engines unlike the K2 Catapult that is also seen occationaly to mount twin AC 20s.

Lacking the lower arm actuators limits the horizontal motion of the target reticlue and many pilots will attest to this reducing convergance issues making the arm mounted ballistics more reliably accurate.

As a ballistic platform the Jaeger mech has a varent with 2 ballistic hardpoints in each arm.Much like the Cataphract 4X.The differance would be the Jaegermech mounts a faster engine by default and thus can be built to be much faster than a Cataphract 4X.

65 ton mechs are less expencive than 70 ton mechs.

[MustrumRidcully]

While I prefer the ballistic Jaeger - there is also a variant with missiles and ballistics. That could also lead to some interesting builds... Maybe not with ECM as is, though.

[Strucker]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I wouldn't touch a Jagermech with a 10 foot meter stick.

Are you serious? 2 units of measurement, yolo right?

[TruePoindexter]

I may give this Jagermech a whirl...

2 AC20 2 SL

Spoiler

Chassis Name: JagerMech
Model Name: JM6-A
Variant Name: 2 AC20 2 SL

Engine Cost: 4,480,000 C-Bills
Heat Sink Cost: 0 C-Bills
Armor Cost: 120,192 C-Bills
Weapons Cost: 1,245,000 C-Bills
Equipment Cost: 0 C-Bills
Ammo Cost: 70,021 C-Bills

Engine: 280 XL Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel Internals
Armor Type: Standard Armor
Heat Sinks: 10 (11) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 65.00
Speed: 75.0 kph
Armor Total: 368
Alpha Strike Damage: 46.00
Alpha Strike Heat: 29.63%
Firepower: 12.90 dps
Heat Efficiency: 49.37%
Effective Range of Loadout: 270m

Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 44/60
Right Rear Torso: 16/60
Center Torso: 64/84
Center Rear Torso: 20/84
Left Torso: 44/60
Left Rear Torso: 16/60
Right Arm: 40/40
Left Arm: 40/40
Right Leg: 33/60
Left Leg: 33/60

Weapons Locations
Right Arm:
AC20
Left Arm:
AC20
Right Torso:
Small Laser
Left Torso:
Small Laser

Heat Sink Locations

Equipment Locations

Ammo Locations
Center Torso:
(2) AC20 Ammo
Head:
AC20 Ammo
Right Leg:
(2) AC20 Ammo
Left Leg:
(2) AC20 Ammo

Dual AC20 running 75kph? Delicious.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 11 December 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Soy]

Strucker, on 11 December 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Are you serious? 2 units of measurement, yolo right?

Are you serious? Ironic that you yourself just used a colloquialism...

[DoRkcHoPs]

Its like two kids arguing, no it isnt, yes it is, no it isnt, yes it is


Props to the image proof

[Mr 144]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 December 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

While I prefer the ballistic Jaeger - there is also a variant with missiles and ballistics. That could also lead to some interesting builds... Maybe not with ECM as is, though.

I actually like that variant (JM6-A), and will probably be my preferred. There's a lot of possibilities with 2x missle, as missles in general are very tonnage effecient, and tonnage is going to be a primary concern if trying to use 4x ballistics. Dropping 2 ballistic slots for 2xSSRM2 emergency defense for 4 tons is a sweet trade-off at least.

Mr 144

[Leimrey]

Guys, you're forgetting one very important detail: a Jagermech can be completely neutered by having his arms shot off. The total amount of armor + internal HP on both arms combined will be probably less or very close to the Center Torso armor + Center Torso internals HP.
It doesn't matter whether or not the Jagermech presents a smaller profile while shooting from a ridge, what matters is that he has to expose his arms to do so. Coupled with the fact that the Jagermech has poor armor in general and the arms will probably have quite large hitboxes, it will be relatively easy to neuter, compared to, say, a gausscat, which has pretty much unhittable side torsos.

It's like saying that the Hunchback makes a better PPC platform than the Awesome, because he can mount triple PPCs on his hunch, which is situated higher than his cockpit, while the Awesome's weapons are situated lower on his arm and torsos. The Hunchback will still be presenting his hunch to the enemy and all it takes to neuter him is to blow up that hunch. Sure, he has a smaller profile, but the Awesome has weapons distributed among the STs and his right arm and a skilled pilot always aims for specific bodyparts, instead of randomly spraying their weapons across the entire profile.

TL;DR: the Jagermech will be usable, as valid as the Cataphract, maybe, but the K2 Catapult will always remain the No1 direct fire support platform due to unhittable side torsos and the fact that weapons sometimes blatantly refuse to register on its d*ldo shaped center torso due to its geometry.

Edited by Leimrey, 12 December 2012 - 07:55 AM.