158 replies to this topic

[Tikkamasala]

bLaCkMaMbA, on 11 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

So is it their fault that they chose a better communication method which you turned down? Remember, it was your (the people who won't use voice chats) decision to not use it. Thats like being forced into a group who has cell phones to communicate... yet complaining to them to use smoke signals to communicate because you choose not to buy a cell phone. It's not their fault they chose the better method which was also available to you. Just like how PUGS says they shouldn't be forced to go voice.... why would people with voice chat be forced to downgrade back to text chat when they have the more advanced tool which you turned down to use?

No one is blaming them for using voice chat or forcing them to fall back to archaic text chat. Just common courtesy to have everyone playing with and against each other on a level playing field. Voice chat in the solo queue would be the exception while it would be the norm in the other queues. Everyone would know beforehand.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Tikkamasala, on 11 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I meant 2-4 players using voice chat. Most of them don't bother to use team chat and just do their thing.

Most noone TALKS in games from what I see

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Tikkamasala, on 11 December 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

[/b]

The probability to get an even team are higher in the solo queue. So while you are correct that the same can happen it will happen less often.

[/b]

Is there anyone who wants a solo queue instead of ELO? I did not notice anyone in this thread.

What? How can the odds be higher vs the odds now when there is no rating system to seperate people using skill/mech levels? It will be totally random like it is now and can place anything on any side... the only factor will be that they will all be PUGS. So the more experienced PUGS with decked out mechs will stomp on the new players. Then the complains will roll in from the new players demanding a trial only queue... which equals bandaid fix work for PGI and the QQ will never end.

So again... the only thing it does is rotate whos stomping who. The people complaining now of gettin stomped by premades using voice comms will be the ones doing the stomping with superior mechs and experience. And somehow I bet those same people won't be complaining then since now they're on the winning side.

ELO on the other hand should fix that. New people with trial mechs vs that same group. People with experience and decked out mechs vs people of their level.

Again people... look in the mirror and consider what your true motives are. Remember your argument PUGS... "New players need priority because they are the life blood of the game." Don't get me wrong... if we could get a Trial only queue or PUG only queue in magically without diverting resources from ELO or other features... I'd be all for it.... but things just don't magically appear like that.

Tikkamasala, on 11 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

No one is blaming them for using voice chat or forcing them to fall back to archaic text chat. Just common courtesy to have everyone playing with and against each other on a level playing field. Voice chat in the solo queue would be the exception while it would be the norm in the other queues. Everyone would know beforehand.

PUGS claim this excuse all the time... that they're disadvantaged to have to play against people with voice com and that they don't want to face premades using it just because they don't want to use voice.

There are plenty games out there which match you up with people regardless if you're on voice comm or not... its your decision to reap the benefits of it or not. But if you choose not to... don't expect other people to downgrade just to want to communicate with you. It's about decisions of people and not about courtesy.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Alexandrix]

Trial mech Q would be awesome.All stock,no cheeseboats,good stuff!
At least then everyone would be on an even footing mech wise.No ridiculous custom builds.The games would last longer because trial mechs are mostly ovens and over heat after 2-3 shots.Don't get me wrong,i enjoy tinkering with my mechs just as much as the next guy,but stock only mode would be so much fun!

Edited by Alexandrix, 11 December 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Why not just make a begineers server - a proving ground or training area if you will. One that they can opt on the client to join or be forced into till they build skills and c-bills. There they can play against other new players in trial mechs until such time as they buy their first mech or accumulate 15 million C-bills. By buying a mech or earning that much - they have "graduated" to playing with the rest of us. By then they should have grasped the mechanics of the game and don't have to run trials vs cusomized mechs.

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Steel Claws, on 11 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Why not just make a begineers server - a proving ground or training area if you will. One that they can opt on the client to join or be forced into till they build skills and c-bills. There they can play against other new players in trial mechs until such time as they buy their first mech or accumulate 15 million C-bills. By buying a mech or earning that much - they have "graduated" to playing with the rest of us. By then they should have grasped the mechanics of the game and don't have to run trials vs cusomized mechs.

Thats exactly what the ELO system should do if they implement it correctly which is why it makes a heck of alot more sense than a PUG only queue which still allows stomping to occur regularly.

If you're a new player in trial mechs... you should have a certain low rating and it should only match you up against people of that same rating scale. Once you can afford a better setup and have more skill/experience.. your rating goes up and you gradually face people of the same skill level. Then new players shouldn't get ROFLstomped by anyone but the people of their same level. Then there will be no more "premade" boogeyman or premade "sync dropping" boogeyman to place blame on. Nor can they claim that magically the majority of the clans are artifically dropping their ratings just to come ROFLstomp them because a common excuse is that they claim all clans care about are K/D ratio. Well guess what... you'ed have to maintain a pretty bad K/D ratio to pull that off so that blows that excuse outta the water.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Lin Shai]

Wyatt Earp, on 11 December 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

For those of you who don't see this as an issue, your kidding yourselves. It is an issue, and it needs to be fixed. I don't know how, but it needs fixed.

I've been on both sides of this. All anyone has to do is see how many times this very complaint has been brought up to realize there is some problem with implementing this part of the game. PGI will get us there, but please stop kidding yourself that this is a "noob" complaint. You sometimes come off to others as having an elitist attitude, even if you don't mean to.

There's an issue, but it has nothing to do with the "pre-made" boogyman and everything to do with "noobs".

The issue is that there's no matchmaking system in this game, so new players ("noobs") and people who simply aren't very good at the game (The PUGs you see claiming they lose every game because of the "pre-made" boogyman) get thrown into game with people who are simply much better at the game then they are.

Many of us have PUGed hundreds of games, and posted stats showing that you can easily carry a 1:1 win/loss and positive k/d. I can do it in trial mechs, even.

You don't lose because of people on the other team playing with their friends, you lose because of your teammates. I've been PUGing lately to again prove this point and quite frankly, I don't know how people do it and not want to hang themselves.

The typical PUG disaster loss starts when no one types a thing in chat, and everyone starts meandering off in a random direction without knowing where the enemy is. It doesn't matter if they "stick together"; No one scouts. No one says a word. Everyone starts shooting at random targets (if they don't just completely flank them and go cap the base) and usually some portion of the team runs off after at least one light 'mech (Squirrel!) .

If you spectate after dying (which few PUGs seem to do, I might add; you'll notice the majority exit after dying) you will see things that quite frankly explain exactly why you lost. People standing in the base doing nothing except waiting to get killed ("Derp, I'm guarding the base!"), "snipers" who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, people playing with joysticks and not being able to hit mechs 30 meters from them. The list goes on and on, and that's completely ignoring the players who are brand new and barely know how to fire their weapons or what each does.

The team with the fewest Rambos/"noobs"/bad players wins. Usually in a landslide.

It has nothing to do with "pre-mades" as you actually are rarely playing against them. Again, those of us who are half decent of the game will go PUG 50 - 100 games and see that. We somehow magically aren't playing against anyone but other PUGs, and generally are winning 50% or more of our matches in spite of everything above.

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Lin Shai, on 11 December 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

There's an issue, but it has nothing to do with the "pre-made" boogyman and everything to do with "noobs".

The issue is that there's no matchmaking system in this game, so new players ("noobs") and people who simply aren't very good at the game (The PUGs you see claiming they lose every game because of the "pre-made" boogyman) get thrown into game with people who are simply much better at the game then they are.

Many of us have PUGed hundreds of games, and posted stats showing that you can easily carry a 1:1 win/loss and positive k/d. I can do it in trial mechs, even.

You don't lose because of people on the other team playing with their friends, you lose because of your teammates. I've been PUGing lately to again prove this point and quite frankly, I don't know how people do it and not want to hang themselves.

The typical PUG disaster loss starts when no one types a thing in chat, and everyone starts meandering off in a random direction without knowing where the enemy is. It doesn't matter if they "stick together"; No one scouts. No one says a word. Everyone starts shooting at random targets (if they don't just completely flank them and go cap the base) and usually some portion of the team runs off after at least one light 'mech (Squirrel!) .

If you spectate after dying (which few PUGs seem to do, I might add; you'll notice the majority exit after dying) you will see things that quite frankly explain exactly why you lost. People standing in the base doing nothing except waiting to get killed ("Derp, I'm guarding the base!"), "snipers" who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, people playing with joysticks and not being able to hit mechs 30 meters from them. The list goes on and on, and that's completely ignoring the players who are brand new and barely know how to fire their weapons or what each does.

The team with the fewest Rambos/"noobs"/bad players wins. Usually in a landslide.

It has nothing to do with "pre-mades" as you actually are rarely playing against them. Again, those of us who are half decent of the game will go PUG 50 - 100 games and see that. We somehow magically aren't playing against anyone but other PUGs, and generally are winning 50% or more of our matches in spite of everything above.

Exactly right...

Then they come on here and claim... WE NEED A PUG ONLY QUEUE because we think everyones sync dropping to stomp us!

They get asked... "well how do you know the other side was sync dropping?"

"Uhhhh OMG they had ECM mechs! AND they were working together!"

Well guess what... it'll be exactly the same in the PUG only queue because there are good PUGs and bad PUGs. Instead of the rare sync dropped premades stomping you (it really is your fellow pugs stomping you the rest of the time)... it'll be the good PUG's stomping you with just the most basic of tactics... minimal teamwork... better mech specs... and good aiming.

Would you rather have that or the dev focus on making the ELO matchmaking system where you'll actually be facing people your skill level/same mech levels instead of getting cycled another round of people to stomp you in a Solo PUG Queue which pretty much fixes nothing in terms of stomping (which is what Mack wants)?

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Rifter]

OP has a good idea. And he is totally right, 4 man premades are still rolling pugs.

I dropped with three friends last week and we won 47 games in a row, with a ECM commando a ECM raven and 2 jenners. all with cap accelerators. We cap rushed every game along the outer edge routes on all the maps, usually didnt even need to fight anyone and when we did we killed them with out combined 9 streak2 launchers in less than 10 seconds.

Was total easymode the enemy teams never stood a chance, the only thing i dont feel bad about is since we never fought or killed much unless we happened to run into a light on our cap rush at least they didnt have huge repair bills to pay.

This is made worse by 8 man groups right now being completly unfun to play, its turned into whoever fields the most ECM mechs wins the game most of the time, so if you feel like dropping a DC atlas every single game great but if you want to actually play the mechs you want and have a chance of winning the game you are left with no choice but to solo pug drop or drop in groups of 4 or less.

The other option Would be for them to fix the MM to only match a group with a 4man team vs another group with a 4 man team.

[Galenit]

Rifter, on 11 December 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

OP has a good idea. And he is totally right, 4 man premades are still rolling pugs.

And they claimed in this forum they do it, because of cheesy teams, dont want to play in special mechs, ... aka they dont adapt to their opponents.
Its funny that a lot of premades do this after blaming pugs and told them to L2P, adapt, ....
A little schizophrenic too, if you ask me ...

[Galenit]

Matching this tread:

http://mwomercs.com/...ch/page__st__60

http://mwomercs.com/...ay/page__st__20

[SpiralRazor]

Vlad Ward, on 11 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

This is dumb.

No one would join the "normal queue", leaving no one for 2 or 3 person teams to play with.

Two man groups only in the Solo Que.. it works QUITE well for Riot.

Rifter, on 11 December 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

OP has a good idea. And he is totally right, 4 man premades are still rolling pugs.

I dropped with three friends last week and we won 47 games in a row, with a ECM commando a ECM raven and 2 jenners. all with cap accelerators. We cap rushed every game along the outer edge routes on all the maps, usually didnt even need to fight anyone and when we did we killed them with out combined 9 streak2 launchers in less than 10 seconds.

Was total easymode the enemy teams never stood a chance, the only thing i dont feel bad about is since we never fought or killed much unless we happened to run into a light on our cap rush at least they didnt have huge repair bills to pay.

This is made worse by 8 man groups right now being completly unfun to play, its turned into whoever fields the most ECM mechs wins the game most of the time, so if you feel like dropping a DC atlas every single game great but if you want to actually play the mechs you want and have a chance of winning the game you are left with no choice but to solo pug drop or drop in groups of 4 or less.

The other option Would be for them to fix the MM to only match a group with a 4man team vs another group with a 4 man team.

Big Big nerf on ECM would return 8 man to being fun again...

[Kill Dozer]

MW 3050 had a decent system, MSN Gaming Zones implementation for MW3/4 was fine. I used to play in a league that used the IS star map for league play and the match making of MW3 and 4. Why don't we just start there, no need to reinvent the wheel when its already round.

Get a server/game browser and lobby system where users can create a room with certain options:
~map type
~mech tonnage limits
~# of players
~"pug/open" or restricted/locked for specific unit vs unit league (or MWO) play.
~etc

If I wanted to put together a 5v5 with ML and say GDL for example, why does it have to be a PITA?

[Zylo]

Vlad Ward, on 11 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

This is dumb.

No one would join the "normal queue", leaving no one for 2 or 3 person teams to play with.

This is exactly what is wrong with the idea.

As I have said many times the problem with pug stomping is the presence of multiple groups on the same side vs 8 random players.

[Zylo]

DoRkcHoPs, on 11 December 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Even with ELO matchmaking you could in theory just do really really bad and lower your rating and then go stomp lower rated players for a while.

I see another side to this that might be good:

All those players disconnecting to avoid the death being counted will end up getting stomped by far better players if the future matchmaking system considers K/D ratio as part of matchmaking.

Mack1, on 11 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Devs am not here to say I told you so but you really should listen to your more experienced gamers, we do know a lot better than you what will happen in games, we are the gamers, we know eachother a lot better than you lot do.

Your dreadful plan to stop PUG stomping and thus make the game more user friendly to new players has pretty much failed just as I predicted it would.

I told you that all the talk from premades and clans about how they had no choice but PUG stomp was utter bullcrap and that even when 8 v 8 options came into effect they would simply split into two 4 man lances and continue the stomp. This is exactly what is happening and I am quite sure you already know this from your DATA.

So here I will once again post you a simple solution to this, granted it's not as elaborate as your grand master plan but my plan is far better. Your plan reminded me of the French in WWII with the Maginot Line, it looks great but is very easy to defeat. So here it is, the best plan and only plan that will stop this.... (drum roll) Implement a solo only queue! Yup that's it, plain and simple, easy and effective. If you just want to solo against other soloists or just practice with your mech in fair and square games have a solo queue. You can still organise your team in game but it totally stops premades from destroying newbies.

If you want to play with a few m8's then you simply join the normal queue (the one we have now) and if you want to play against other premades we have the 8 v 8 queue. Everyone is happy (except the premades who can't actually play against other premades cos they suck.)

So there you go, you could have done this ages ago, i actually suggested this in beta, can't believe you ain't done it. But I can tell you now a lot of new players are not going to stick around getting facerolled by premades for very long.

You know the players currently abusing the matchmaking system would just figure out a way to sync-drop solo to "make" a group of 8.

[Megahard]

Have you ever considered you're just getting rolled by better pugs?

[Gabrielpendragon]

It entertains me that some puggies just know how to use team work and thus still stomp other puggies...

The alt option to a solo que is a bot que to drop with bots...wait isn't the training ground they are working on going to serve that purpose?

[Mack1]

BTW everyone... If clans are not deliberately joining the PUG queue for some good old newbie farming, why are so many of them up in arms about having a solo only queue?

If I were in a clan and played regular clan v clan or premade v premade I would not care at all about a solo pug queue. I think the fact this thread has so many people flaming the idea of a solo queue is a good enough reason to have one. Clearly the clans don't want this to happen, it will ruin their fun.

Oh and if you want proff that 4 man teams are regularly pug stomping just play 20 games and screenshot the teams before each game starts, you can study the data for yourself, you will see the same names time and time again from the same clans on the same side.

Devs get it sorted please,

[Zylo]

Mack1, on 12 December 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

BTW everyone... If clans are not deliberately joining the PUG queue for some good old newbie farming, why are so many of them up in arms about having a solo only queue?

If I were in a clan and played regular clan v clan or premade v premade I would not care at all about a solo pug queue. I think the fact this thread has so many people flaming the idea of a solo queue is a good enough reason to have one. Clearly the clans don't want this to happen, it will ruin their fun.

Oh and if you want proff that 4 man teams are regularly pug stomping just play 20 games and screenshot the teams before each game starts, you can study the data for yourself, you will see the same names time and time again from the same clans on the same side.

Devs get it sorted please,

I think if you did this you would even find 7 or 8 from the same merc group on the same side. This is the real problem that 8 grouped players can go against 8 random players.

If a single group is present on BOTH sides with the rest of the spots filled by random players, is this not balanced?


So, what excuse will you use for getting stomped if you do get that solo only match option?

Wait, I think I've got it!
Your team had more trial mechs!

Edited by Zylo, 12 December 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Gabrielpendragon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

It entertains me that some puggies just know how to use team work and thus still stomp other puggies...

The alt option to a solo que is a bot que to drop with bots...wait isn't the training ground they are working on going to serve that purpose?

If team A has 8 players with a combined total of say 5000 games played between them and team B has 8 players with a combined total of 200 games between them.....who is going to win?

Now give half of team A the added advantage of voice chat and what's going to happen?

There are things wrong with matchmaking that just creating a 'solo only' queue won't fix outright....but it would certainly make an impovement for the solo players.