Jump to content

Anti Radiation Missiles- Ecm Counter.


29 replies to this topic

#21 Scratx

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 3,283 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

View PostAngelicon, on 12 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I so rarely got killed by LRM rains of death before ECM... I don't get why so many people (like Korea here) whine about them. They weren't OP at all -- now they're not worth carrying.

LRMs are a canon weapon system carried by a LARGE percentage of the mech chassis/variants in Battletech. Totally neutering them is a disservice to the franchise.


Yeah. I don't get it, either. And after being called an "LRM f****t" a few days ago in my Catapult with 2xLRM10+Artemis ... sorry, my sympathy went out the airlock.

Scream as you die under my LRMs, whiners and QQ'ers. Your tears are lube for my missile doors.

#22 Codejack

    Dezgra

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,530 posts
  • LocationChattanooga, TN

Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:09 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 12 December 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

A minor nit-pick, in that "proper" ARMs are apparently LosTech (on both sides of the tech tree, no less!), and aren't available to the IS until the FWL re-invents them in 3065 (and Clan Smoke Jaguar re-inventing them for the Clans in 3055).


Sure, but they essentially gave us Angel ECM, and that isn't supposed to even start development until 3052; we can't use canon to oppose a counter to a system that works differently than in canon.


View PostRhent, on 12 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

As more timeline-appropriate alternatives, there are "Listen-Kill Missiles" (that essentially do the same thing, albeit not as well as the "proper" ARMs), "Magnetic-Pulse Warheads" (which could be made to disrupt/impair the functioning of ECM, BAP, Artemis, and other EW enhancements), and "Dead-Fire Missiles" (which sacrifice the guidance system (no tracking at all, but nothing for ECM to affect) for the ability to carry a larger warhead (more damage per missile))...? ;)


There has been discussion of giving PPCs and EMP effect, but I don't know if it has gone anywhere.

The remaining problem is that adding more kinds of missiles increases the complexity of an already strained system; screw it, just hit ECM with 2 or 3 whacks from the nerfbat and be done with it.

#23 Jakob Knight

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Giant Helper
  • Giant Helper
  • 1,286 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:19 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 12 December 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

A minor nit-pick, in that "proper" ARMs are apparently LosTech (on both sides of the tech tree, no less!), and aren't available to the IS until the FWL re-invents them in 3065 (and Clan Smoke Jaguar re-inventing them for the Clans in 3055).

As more timeline-appropriate alternatives, there are "Listen-Kill Missiles" (that essentially do the same thing, albeit not as well as the "proper" ARMs), "Magnetic-Pulse Warheads" (which could be made to disrupt/impair the functioning of ECM, BAP, Artemis, and other EW enhancements), and "Dead-Fire Missiles" (which sacrifice the guidance system (no tracking at all, but nothing for ECM to affect) for the ability to carry a larger warhead (more damage per missile))...? ;)



And the ECM system as it was implemented is the equivilant of a super Null Signature system with an area-effect mode. Exactly when were Hyper Null Signature systems re-invented, precisely, so we can accurately guage when it would be appropriate to add HARM missiles?

#24 Strum Wealh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Raider
  • The Raider
  • 5,025 posts
  • LocationPittsburgh, PA

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

View PostJakob Knight, on 12 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

And the ECM system as it was implemented is the equivilant of a super Null Signature system with an area-effect mode. Exactly when were Hyper Null Signature systems re-invented, precisely, so we can accurately guage when it would be appropriate to add HARM missiles?

If it is actually operating as the Devs described, then it is generally doing more-or-less what it should be doing.

Quote

[color=#959595]When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:[/color]
  • You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.
  • You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  • Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  • You cannot achieve any missile locks.
  • Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  • Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.

From Total Warfare, pg. 134:
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed, however."
"ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM..."
"Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the... bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM 'bubble'."
"ECM has the effect of 'cutting off' any C3-equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network below it is effectively shut off."
"The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers."

Also, the Guardian ECM Suite apparently includes an integral ECCM capacity (the operation of which is described in Tactical Operations, pgs. 224-225), which accounts for the "counter mode" implemented in MWO.

By contrast, the Null Signature System (Tactical Operations, pg. 336) induces targeting penalties (in TT terms, +1 at Medium range and +2 at Long and Extreme ranges), "Beagle Active Probes and their Clan equivalents cannot locate a hidden unit with an active Null-Signature System", and penalties are levied against heat-seeking weapons (the Heat Seeking Warheads are given as a specific example).
Also, the NSS does not include an ECCM mode, unlike the (evidently more-capable) Guardian, Angel, and Clan ECM units.

So, while MWO's ECM implementation is more capable than the TT version (as it will affect TAG transmissions and mundane missile locks), the difference isn't as much as it's being made out to be (and, where there are differences, they do seem to follow logically from the original known capabilities).
Moreover, both TT and MWO implementations of ECM are evidently far more capable in the E-War department, overall, than the (TT version of) NSS (which is a better system in terms of generally avoiding detection).
There is some overlap in the capabilities of NSS and ECM, but it's far from the degree that it's made out to be.

#25 PYM Scorn

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 41 posts
  • LocationWyoming

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostClark, on 12 December 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Dang! I would absolutely LOVE to play a Wild Weasel. Give me HARMs and a scout 'mech.. I'll bring back the severed heads of the ECM 'mechs. ;)



Word!

#26 CompositeGNFNR

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 96 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

I'd say wait until lag fixed before adding missile ammo variants, for balance purposes. However I see something like this tied into magnetic vision, seeing as it would share similar properties.

On the Narc-ECM idea, just no.

#27 GalaxyBluestar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,748 posts
  • Location...

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostCodejack, on 12 December 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:


Let's see here, two weapon systems that were not unbalancing the game have been completely eliminated by a piece of equipment that clearly is.

Or, please explain to me what game you were in that started with someone saying, "Uh-oh, we don't have any streakcats, might as well just power down now."

OP, ARM might work if it could just be a different ammo for the same weapons, but I'm not sure that that is going to be implemented.

ECM is clearly out of proportion, but whether it needs to just be scaled down (400m detection and only slow down lock-on, not prevent) or given proper counters (BAP & NARC allowing lock-on, etc) doesn't really matter to me.


actually streaks do have an upperhand, if they didn't then explain the ecm ravens and commandos packing them acting like streak cats did.

View PostAngelicon, on 12 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I so rarely got killed by LRM rains of death before ECM... I don't get why so many people (like Korea here) whine about them. They weren't OP at all -- now they're not worth carrying.

LRMs are a canon weapon system carried by a LARGE percentage of the mech chassis/variants in Battletech. Totally neutering them is a disservice to the franchise.


THAT

#28 Codejack

    Dezgra

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,530 posts
  • LocationChattanooga, TN

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 12 December 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:


actually streaks do have an upperhand, if they didn't then explain the ecm ravens and commandos packing them acting like streak cats did.



They carry ECM of their own.

#29 GalaxyBluestar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,748 posts
  • Location...

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

View PostCodejack, on 12 December 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:


They carry ECM of their own.


so it's the ecm's fault that streaks were overused then and now still being overused because they're the perfect smother play with little to no right of reply since you can't run away from them.

#30 FunkyFritter

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 459 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

Using some niche weapon as a counter doesn't sound very interesting. ECM needs to either have a less dramatic effect or a more significant drawback, otherwise it will continue to overshadow other options and result in an ECM vs ECM-counter metagame.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users