64 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

Dakkath, on 12 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Yeah it's definitely open for interpretation on that aspect considering in table top it was 1 shot, 5 damage for the AC5. etc. So you'd think it be just one round.

However, if you really think about an Auto-Cannon, it would fire multiple rounds, and most likely contain tracers, and you'd hit multiple body locations as you fire (kinda like an A10 warthog cannon?)

but then that goes away from table-top rules, and defeats the purpose of the big guns AC/20.

Either way, I agree that you can see stuff w/tracers, but I didnt think AC's in MWO had them... needless to say I think the speed buffs are warranted.

Well I can totally see a AC cannon firing nothing but tracers. Its not like you are going to hide that big mech, and the tracer rounds would help them walk in shots with their horrid targeting computers that seem to be from the 80's.

[Duncan Fisher]

cdlord, on 12 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Bullets and bolts of lightning... Both pretty fast imo.

If a bullet and a bolt of lightning were to race, it would be like racing you against a fighter jet.

[Gaeb]

Duncan Fisher, on 12 December 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

If a bullet and a bolt of lightning were to race, it would be like racing you against a fighter jet.

*geek out*
So technically bullets are in the 800-4000 mph category depending on weapon and conditions.

Lightning is in the the 160,000 to 250,000 mph category.

Light (for reference) is ~670,000,000 mph.

[Duncan Fisher]

Gaeb, on 12 December 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

*geek out*
So technically bullets are in the 800-4000 mph category depending on weapon and conditions.

Lightning is in the the 160,000 to 250,000 mph category.

Light (for reference) is ~670,000,000 mph.

Let's say lighting goes ~200,000 mph

A bullet goes ~2000 mph


A jet fighter goes ~1500 mph

cdlord runs at ~15 mph (if he plays sports or stays active)

200,000/2000 = 1500/15

The math checks out!

[Gaeb]

Physics-five!

[Aidan Malchor]

SpiralRazor, on 12 December 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

You do realize that even 2000 is not fast enough for weapon that should be hitscan right?? 2000 is simply a bandaid.

And AC rounds travel way to slow....projectiles should be barely visible.

Read some books, the ones by Stackpole are pretty good,.

Just because a book lists some stats doesn't mean those stats would make for fun or balanced gameplay. There will be countless tweaks to most if not all weapon systems. Some tweaks will be buffs, some nerfs and some will be both. Whatever changes learn to cope.

[Solis Obscuri]

Modern tank cannons fire at something like 1,175m/s (L7/M68 firing HE round) to 1,750 m/s (L44/M256 firing APFSDS round) depending on the design of the bore, the caliber, and the type of ammunition used.

Even if our autocannons are rifled, I'd expect better general performance on the larger cannons than the ~900 m/s we're seeing currently.

[Gaeb]

Aidan Malchor, on 12 December 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Just because a book lists some stats doesn't mean those stats would make for fun or balanced gameplay. There will be countless tweaks to most if not all weapon systems. Some tweaks will be buffs, some nerfs and some will be both. Whatever changes learn to cope.

Right. It's all lost-tech.

The reason the AC-20 is so heavy is there's 70 midgets pulling hard on a rubber band to get that projectile out the door, dontchaknow.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Dakkath, on 12 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Yeah it's definitely open for interpretation on that aspect considering in table top it was 1 shot, 5 damage for the AC5. etc. So you'd think it be just one round.

However, if you really think about an Auto-Cannon, it would fire multiple rounds, and most likely contain tracers, and you'd hit multiple body locations as you fire (kinda like an A10 warthog cannon?)

but then that goes away from table-top rules, and defeats the purpose of the big guns AC/20.

Either way, I agree that you can see stuff w/tracers, but I didnt think AC's in MWO had them... needless to say I think the speed buffs are warranted.

Funny enough tracer was an optional standard and light AC only ammo that could be used to give a to hit bonus during night operations in the TT rules though as tracers work both ways it gave the other side a to hit bonus on the 'Mech using tracers.

On topic PPCs needed a speed buff badly for game play as well as to be more proper. As charged particle weapons they have properties of both energy and ballistic weapons so they fall into a grey area cleared up hazily on the condition of whether or not it needs ammo. While they work similar to lightning, lightning is a bolt of electricity following an ionized path through the atmosphere if I recall my grade school science correctly, where as a PPC is a mass of charged particles magnetically accelerated down range hence the energy discharge effect. The particles are going to be a bit slower than lightning, but still faster than any ballistic projectile could ever be practically accelerated chemically or magnetically.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 12 December 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Gaeb, on 12 December 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Right. It's all lost-tech.

The reason the AC-20 is so heavy is there's 70 midgets pulling hard on a rubber band to get that projectile out the door, dontchaknow.

How many midgets does the AC10 require? I might be willing to hire a few more if needed, but Union rules can be a bear.

[Gaeb]

Tickdoff Tank, on 12 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

How many midgets does the AC10 require? I might be willing to hire a few more if needed, but Union rules can be a bear.

Wierd game balance issue: The AC10 only requires 30 midgets, and they take up less space than AC20 midgets, but somehow they weigh more. I think they may have snuck a few larges in there and are charging you union rates.

[CDLord HHGD]

Duncan Fisher, on 12 December 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Let's say lighting goes ~200,000 mph

A bullet goes ~2000 mph


A jet fighter goes ~1500 mph

cdlord runs at ~15 mph (if he plays sports or stays active)

200,000/2000 = 1500/15

The math checks out!

OMFG, I didn't say they both went at the same speed, but that they were both pretty fast. Thank you for pointing out that lightining is waaaaay faster than a bullet. BOTH of which easily out run my fat a$$ so they are both pretty fast IMO.

[PYM Scorn]

Dakkath, on 12 December 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

I think the ordinance velocity speeds are definitely needed. When was the last time you fired a gun and saw the bullet? You typically don't ever.

And in previous versions of MW, the PPC has always been different in each. It's my understanding by reading info on Sarna and BT books that the PPC moves like a "bolt of lightning", so to speak. I am looking forward to the speed changes, it will definitely make the weapons more 'realistic' imo.

I was a tanker for a number of years on M60A3 (105mm) and M1A1 (120mm). You can see a shell of this speed and size going down range. Especially as the real world cannons have tracers that allow you to track them during broad daylight. I don't think being able to see a shell going at an enemy mech or into your cockpit window is that far fetched at all.

$0.02

[SilentSooYun]

In my opinion, it should have been a hitscan weapon from the very beginning, same as lasers only with a cool lightning effect, a powerful "KA-ZAP" sound, and doing all it's damage in one instant instead of the "laser DoT" along with a short EMP effect on the enemy's HUD. Powerful, yeah... just like PPCs are supposed to be. As they stand now, they don't even rate as a secondary weapon except for people who enjoy a challenge more than a functional weapon.

[Squirtbox]

PYM Scorn, on 12 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I was a tanker for a number of years on M60A3 (105mm) and M1A1 (120mm). You can see a shell of this speed and size going down range. Especially as the real world cannons have tracers that allow you to track them during broad daylight. I don't think being able to see a shell going at an enemy mech or into your cockpit window is that far fetched at all.

$0.02

I spent a few years recently on the M3A3 Bradley and you can see the 25mm round that fires pretty easily through the sights as it flies through the air. Same for 40mm rounds from the Mk19; though they are grenades.

SilentSooYun, on 12 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

In my opinion, it should have been a hitscan weapon from the very beginning, same as lasers only with a cool lightning effect, a powerful "KA-ZAP" sound, and doing all it's damage in one instant instead of the "laser DoT" along with a short EMP effect on the enemy's HUD. Powerful, yeah... just like PPCs are supposed to be. As they stand now, they don't even rate as a secondary weapon except for people who enjoy a challenge more than a functional weapon.

Indeed. At the VERY least PPCs should have the highest projectile speed in game if PGI wants them to behave more like ballistics than energy weapons. Though I would then suggest they switch its hardpoint restriction to that of a ballistic instead of energy.

[BlackSquirrel]

Want tracers?

Edited by BlackSquirrel, 12 December 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[mekabuser]

My head is hurting after reading the responses here, most of them.
I read stackpole, My god, fiction has nothing to do with game balance.
two, hitscan for ppc? did any of you play mw4 or mwll? or this game for that matter? I dont have the numbers, or frankly know where to look, but anything over a 10% buff in speed for any of these weapons makes them spam.
Especially the ppc.
It will be like the lrm buff that was instantly hotfixed because they became OP with GIGANTIC capital letters.
THe ppc , hitscan but full burst damage, well that just negates lazers just like pada said.

I cant for the life of me believe that people are still saying things like "ohmygerhd, its lightning.. like its so fast you cant see it.. OOOO"
really?
All of this is make believe and what we are striving for is BALANCE in a make believe environment.

The reason no one uses ac weapons is because hitting a light etc with them is difficult because of the netcode and or lag all our poor players outside of NA have to deal with.. Thats why.. Not the effectiveness of the weapon.. Well, other than the fact that the gauss generated NO heat and has more damage than the ppc. Thats why no one uses the ppc.
Thats it...
Not speed of the rounds.
Like i said, I used the ac10 from day one. SuPER effective against the big targets.
The speed of the shells is fine.. The REASON they are slower, and all us ******** can SEE them is that the time to target for the weapon is the BALANCE for the increased damage they deliver.
Otherwise, why use the 5 or the 2, the increase in range?
why use the large lazer that you have to hold onto a moving target when u can just instahit with the ppc now as they are proposing<or some of you are imagining how it should be?>

There is no great need to reinvent the wheel here. Mw4 and LL had it down pretty damn good for gameplay.

Never saw many balance issues with weapons on the mwll forums. other than lt gauss spam on the fafnir and ssrms d bags in solaris.

[Jack Corvus]

mekabuser, on 12 December 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Especially the ppc.
It will be like the lrm buff that was instantly hotfixed because they became OP with GIGANTIC capital letters.
THe ppc , hitscan but full burst damage, well that just negates lazers just like pada said.

You're worried that a weapon that generates much more heat than lasers, has a minum range restriction, isn't hit-scan, weighs more than lasers, takes up more slots than lasers, and for all that does only 1 point more damage than large lasers is going to suddenly negate lasers by shooting at the speed of an AC/2 round?

[LaserAngel]

Jack Corvus, on 12 December 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

You're worried that a weapon that generates much more heat than lasers, has a minum range restriction, isn't hit-scan, weighs more than lasers, takes up more slots than lasers, and for all that does only 1 point more damage than large lasers is going to suddenly negate lasers by shooting at the speed of an AC/2 round?

Oh no, maybe people will start taking the PPC seriously now...

[Bagheera]

Faster PPC velocity won't obviate large lasers. Not now, and especially not after LL get a heat/dmg pass as listed in the Command Chair weapons balance thread. It will just make them (PPCs) more appealing than they were previously.

AC projectiles have always been too slow. I thought the AC20 got it's speed boost in the last patch, but maybe my reaction was psychosomatic since I had not played for a while. Either way, I'm glad they are finally doing something about it.

Edited by Bagheera, 12 December 2012 - 10:01 PM.