46 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

From what I gather reading many of the posts regarding the problems with boating weapons deemed OP, is that almost every weapon has been called OP at some point by somebody. The REAL problem, as I see it, is the massive alpha strike damage of these supposedly OP weapons.

It seems an effective solution would be to make the decision to alpha strike a difficult one. Perhaps a heat modifier for alpha striking with more than 2 weapons at once, cumulative, so that alpha-ing 6 medium lasers would result in almost certain shutdown, 4 SRM6s at once would double the heat generated, etc. It would resolve the issue of the "3-second jenner", LRM boat spamming, and the SRM cat. (Gausscats have their own issues now).

It would be a simple fix, instead of constantly nerfing/buffing weapons that really are not broken.

Any thoughts?

[Túatha Dé Danann]

It would break valid loadout with weapons that are not "OP". also, the loadout are all valid. If you close in against an SRM boat, you just made the wrong move. Loadouts can be a little unbalanced, but every loadout got its advantages and disadvantages. Adapt your strategy instead of shouting "OP, OP!"

[Hotthedd]

I never called any weapon OP, as a matter of fact I went out of my way to say the problem was NOT any "OP" weapon.

No loadout would be "broken", would it "break" a loadout to have to aim multiple times? Alpha striking could STILL be done, but at a higher heat cost.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Why, because an alpha deals the highest amount of damage in the shortest period of time? Well, thats WHY its called alpha strike. Its the whole point of it.

[Bhael Fire]

There's already a pretty hefty price for using Alpha Strike; ALL your weapons heat spike at once...not a favorable condition. A mechwarrior must already use judicious use of alpha striking because of this.

[Hotthedd]

Shevchen, on 12 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Why, because an alpha deals the highest amount of damage in the shortest period of time? Well, thats WHY its called alpha strike. Its the whole point of it.

Great, and it would STILL be an option, it would merely come with a tradeoff of higher heat generation. Think about it, with more weapons firing simultaneously, the heat would not have anywhere to go as quickly.

It would be much better than the constant nerfing/buffing/tweaking of weapons that do not need to be messed with. People could still boat lasers, boat SRMs, boat LRMs, but might choose to chain fire to avoid the heat penalty. It would lead to fewer "3 second kills" in the back, or at least add an element of risk to doing it.

[Hotthedd]

Bhael Fire, on 12 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

There's already a pretty hefty price for using Alpha Strike; ALL your weapons heat spike at once...not a favorable condition. A mechwarrior must already use judicious use of alpha striking because of this.

They all register at the same time (heatwise) but no MORE so than chain firing. There is little risk of overheating if you watch your heat before you alpha strike, but from what I am gathering, the reason for the DHS nerf, and calls for SSRM and LRM nerfs was because alpha striking with those weapons generally happen when the mech is at close to zero heat, and the M. laser alpha strike could be mitigated by 2.0 DHS.

[focuspark]

Bhael Fire, on 12 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

There's already a pretty hefty price for using Alpha Strike; ALL your weapons heat spike at once...not a favorable condition. A mechwarrior must already use judicious use of alpha striking because of this.

^^ this. And, if you miss all your weapons are on cooldown and your target's likely aren't.

[Hotthedd]

focuspark, on 12 December 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

^^ this. And, if you miss all your weapons are on cooldown and your target's likely aren't.

That is hardly a problem for Fast lights, they can just avoid being hit until the cooldown is over. A heat spike penalty for alpha striking 6 lasers, however, would make the use of that tactic VERY judicious.

I am just saying that the current game of nerf/buff/tweak/repeat on multiple weapons system doesn't work, especially when the ACTUAL problem is coming from the ability to fire all weapons at once without much risk.

[Willie Sauerland]

I don't think the problem here is the alpha strike. I think the problem is OP can't hit a fast light because of lag shield and lights with jump jets can exploit a bug allowing them to pack on more weapons. Once the jump jet thing is fixed, I think part of this problem will go away. The rest will go away when:

- netcode is fixed
- GPU memory leak is fixed
- collisions are introduced back into the game

Right now, we'll just have to live with it. However, the ability to alpha strike is not an issue and its mechanic does not need to be changed. Alpha striking has its advantages but also it disadvantages, both of which have been pointed out already.

[Bobzilla]

I don't think alpha strike is a problem.

[Hotthedd]

Bobzilla, on 13 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

I don't think alpha strike is a problem.

It is not a PROBLEM, per se, it just carries very little risk to very high reward, and from what I have gathered in the forums, most of the qqing about OP weapons could actually be fixed if alpha striking carried some sort of heat penalty. It is real world physics, and just forces mechwarriors to use their judgement slightly more. Right now the min/maxers just figure out the best weapons per tonnage/criticals/heat and boat them, spamming alphas. IF spamming alphas actually COST a little more heat, it would cease to be the no-brainer that it currently is. It would not PREVENT anyone from continuing that playstyle.

[Willie Sauerland]

Hotthedd, on 13 December 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

It is not a PROBLEM, per se, it just carries very little risk to very high reward, and from what I have gathered in the forums, most of the qqing about OP weapons could actually be fixed if alpha striking carried some sort of heat penalty. It is real world physics, and just forces mechwarriors to use their judgement slightly more. Right now the min/maxers just figure out the best weapons per tonnage/criticals/heat and boat them, spamming alphas. IF spamming alphas actually COST a little more heat, it would cease to be the no-brainer that it currently is. It would not PREVENT anyone from continuing that playstyle.

The problem in this case is not the alpha strike, but the MIN/MAXers constantly finding new and improved ways to exploit the game mechanics. Seriously, the only thing an adjustment to the alpha strike mechanic would do is keep players who want to really play this game from alpha striking while the MIN/MAXers will move on to their newest way to exploit the game mechanics.

I don't even use the alpha strike and I know there are many people who do not. However, in the rare event I do use an alpha, I want to know it works just like firing my weapons normally would, meaning, just like it does now.

[Hotthedd]

Willie Sauerland, on 13 December 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

The problem in this case is not the alpha strike, but the MIN/MAXers constantly finding new and improved ways to exploit the game mechanics. Seriously, the only thing an adjustment to the alpha strike mechanic would do is keep players who want to really play this game from alpha striking while the MIN/MAXers will move on to their newest way to exploit the game mechanics.

I don't even use the alpha strike and I know there are many people who do not. However, in the rare event I do use an alpha, I want to know it works just like firing my weapons normally would, meaning, just like it does now.

I am in no way suggesting that an alpha strike would risk instant death. Actually, in the scenario you describe, (using alphas when the opportunity presents itself) there would be zero noticeable difference. The heat penalty wouldn't really be felt unless you constantly spammed alphas.

[sycocys]

so instead of straight alpha these guys would simply have a command set to fire all 6 groups slightly off of one another.

[Mr Steik]

IIRC there was plans to have more heat generated when more then one(or more) were fired at the same time.

[Hotthedd]

sycocys, on 13 December 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

so instead of straight alpha these guys would simply have a command set to fire all 6 groups slightly off of one another.

That would work. It requires SLIGHTLY more skill, but would negate the heat penalty.

[Willie Sauerland]

Hotthedd, on 13 December 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

I am in no way suggesting that an alpha strike would risk instant death. Actually, in the scenario you describe, (using alphas when the opportunity presents itself) there would be zero noticeable difference. The heat penalty wouldn't really be felt unless you constantly spammed alphas.

Who said it would risk instant death?

If I am running a light with 2 medium lasers and enough heat sinks to soak up all the heat, why should I not be allowed to constantly spam alphas?

The problems you seem to be pointing out is not the mechanic of the alpha strike which has failed, it is the failure to prevent MIN/MAXers from exploiting the game mechanics.

However, their playing style is currently legal. You and I might agree they are not having fun right, but then again, until something changes to prevent the problem and not the symptom (as you are proposing here) it will continue to happen.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 13 December 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Willie Sauerland, on 13 December 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Who said it would risk instant death?

If I am running a light with 2 medium lasers and enough heat sinks to soak up all the heat, why should I not be allowed to constantly spam alphas?

The problems you seem to be pointing out is not the mechanic of the alpha strike which has failed, it is the failure to prevent MIN/MAXers from exploiting the game mechanics.

However, their playing style is currently legal. You and I might agree they are not having fun right, but then again, until something changes to prevent the problem and not the symptom (as you are proposing here) it will continue to happen.

A two-weapon alpha would have a minimum penalty if any at all.
Alpha striking with 6 weapons would STILL be a legitimate mechanic, it would come with an added risk though.
If people still prefer to alpha strike with 6+ weapons, that would be their choice, and more power to them. I encourage ALL playstyles, I do not place my personal value judgements on how someone else chooses to have fun.

[Shae Starfyre]

There is already a difference between chain firing and alpha (or just having all weapons tied to the first firing group).

I have a Cataphract I like to play with 4 Large lasers. When I fire all lasers at once, the heat spikes in such a way, that with every other slot filled with double-heat sinks, I can only do this for about 4 shots.

If I put two lasers on group 1, and two on group 2, I can fire them one group at a time for about a total of 6-8 shots.

When I chain all four, there is enough dissapation occuring that I can continue to spam single shots for some time; never tried counting the number.

But there is a difference... and as someone put further up, if you balance right, alpha's are not really alphas, they are just what the load-out is capable of.

Forget the term alpha, it makes it sound so crazy....ewwww.