46 replies to this topic

[Willie Sauerland]

Hotthedd, on 13 December 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

A two-weapon alpha would have a minimum penalty if any at all.
Alpha striking with 6 weapons would STILL be a legitimate mechanic, it would come with an added risk though.
If people still prefer to alpha strike with 6+ weapons, that would be their choice, and more power to them. I encourage ALL playstyles, I do not place my personal value judgements on how someone else chooses to have fun.

And yet, it seems you are wanting to swing the nerf-bat at alpha strikes because of some players not having fun right. I'm not saying this effect will not be added in at some point by PGIGP, what I'm saying is that MIN/MAXers will find a new way to exploit the game mechanics - all of which have been perfectly legal. As sycosis said above, they will just chain fire them.

WIll the next step be to change the chain-fire mechanic because it can be too easily exploited?

In other words, I'm wondering where this will end just so everybody can have fun right.

[focuspark]

Hotthedd, on 13 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

That is hardly a problem for Fast lights, they can just avoid being hit until the cooldown is over. A heat spike penalty for alpha striking 6 lasers, however, would make the use of that tactic VERY judicious.

I am just saying that the current game of nerf/buff/tweak/repeat on multiple weapons system doesn't work, especially when the ACTUAL problem is coming from the ability to fire all weapons at once without much risk.

Not sure I'd call the load out of light mechs something that has a really dangerous alpha strike. That said, light mechs are supposed to be hard to hit - killing them is the job of medium mechs.

[Hotthedd]

Willie Sauerland, on 13 December 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

And yet, it seems you are wanting to swing the nerf-bat at alpha strikes because of some players not having fun right. I'm not saying this effect will not be added in at some point by PGIGP, what I'm saying is that MIN/MAXers will find a new way to exploit the game mechanics - all of which have been perfectly legal. As sycosis said above, they will just chain fire them.

WIll the next step be to change the chain-fire mechanic because it can be too easily exploited?

In other words, I'm wondering where this will end just so everybody can have fun right.

What nerf-bat? The option will still be there, the damage will still be there. I do not care if people prefer to play that way. I think that a slight progressive (based on the # of weapons in the alpha strike) heat penalty would address OTHER issues (such as the constant complaints about weapons being OP) WITHOUT having to nerf THOSE weapons.

focuspark, on 13 December 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

Not sure I'd call the load out of light mechs something that has a really dangerous alpha strike. That said, light mechs are supposed to be hard to hit - killing them is the job of medium mechs.

It was a reference to the fabled "3 second Jenner".

[Willie Sauerland]

Hotthedd, on 13 December 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

What nerf-bat? The option will still be there, the damage will still be there. I do not care if people prefer to play that way. I think that a slight progressive (based on the # of weapons in the alpha strike) heat penalty would address OTHER issues (such as the constant complaints about weapons being OP) WITHOUT having to nerf THOSE weapons.

Forgive me as it seems I am irritating you to some degree which is not my intention but I am really trying to understand what you are wanting.

Which weapons are OP based on the alpha strike?

Gauss was considered OP because it has high damage with low heat meaning it could be fired more often.
LRMs were considered OP because of the damage they caused (Artemis added to this as well).
Streaks were considered OP because they could be chain-fired and the knock-about prevented any retaliation while hitting the center torso 100% of the time.
ECM is considered OP because of its ability to stack and cancel out a lot of things.
6 medium laser boating Jenners are considered OP because they are using a Jump Jet bug to reduce weight to add more weapons.

Which weapons are being nerfed due to their alpha strike potential?

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 13 December 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Willie Sauerland, on 13 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Forgive me as it seems I am irritating you to some degree which is not my intention but I am really trying to understand what you are wanting.

Which weapons are OP based on the alpha strike?

Gauss was considered OP because it has high damage with low heat meaning it could be fired more often.
LRMs were considered OP because of the damage they caused (Artemis added to this as well).
Streaks were considered OP because they could be chain-fired and the knock-about prevented any retaliation while hitting the center torso 100% of the time.
ECM is considered OP because of its ability to stack and cancel out a lot of things.
6 medium laser boating Jenners are considered OP because they are using a Jump Jet bug to reduce weight to add more weapons.

Which weapons are being nerfed due to their alpha strike potential?

LRMs were nerfed. (Then tweaked again)
Gauss was nerfed.
Streaks were quasi-nerfed by the implementation of ECM, and the problems that go along with THAT.

My point is, that these things may very well have never needed to be tweaked if there was a penalty for alpha striking with 6 of those weapons simultaneously. Obviously, this would not effect the Gauss whatsoever.

You have not offended me in any way, so no worries. It is not something I WANT, so much as a suggestion that might reduce the constant need to tweak different weapon values. It might not work at all, but it seems to me that it could.

[Willie Sauerland]

Hotthedd, on 13 December 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

LRMs were nerfed. (Then tweaked again)
Gauss was nerfed.
Streaks were quasi-nerfed by the implementation of ECM, and the problems that go along with THAT.

My point is, that these things may very well have never needed to be tweaked if there was a penalty for alpha striking with 6 of those weapons simultaneously. Obviously, this would not effect the Gauss whatsoever.

You have not offended me in any way, so no worries. It is not something I WANT, so much as a suggestion that might reduce the constant need to tweak different weapon values. It might not work at all, but it seems to me that it could.

I fail to see how these things were nerfed due to their continued alpha strike use, but if this idea will help balance out the game then I'm all for it.

[Onyx Rain]

Don't like it....think Alpha strikes are fine...actually take that back. Heat is to harsh in this game, and we should all be able to do 1 more alpha then we can do now...or at least an extra 1/2 then we can do now.

That is what I'd like...I realize that does not suit everyone though.

[Hotthedd]

Willie Sauerland, on 13 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I fail to see how these things were nerfed due to their continued alpha strike use, but if this idea will help balance out the game then I'm all for it.

Here's my theory:

People generally complain about OP weapons when they get killed continuously by them.
Many (if not most) of these deaths were from spammed alphas. (LRMs, 6x M. lasers, Streaks)
Fewer insta-deaths = fewer calls for the nerf bat.
I could be wrong.
Again, I am not asking for the mechanic to be removed or made unplayable. I see that is a valid playstyle, I would just prefer that it require more forethought.

[Willie Sauerland]

Hotthedd, on 13 December 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Here's my theory:

People generally complain about OP weapons when they get killed continuously by them.
Many (if not most) of these deaths were from spammed alphas. (LRMs, 6x M. lasers, Streaks)
Fewer insta-deaths = fewer calls for the nerf bat.
I could be wrong.
Again, I am not asking for the mechanic to be removed or made unplayable. I see that is a valid playstyle, I would just prefer that it require more forethought.

It is hard to separate the whiners who whine for the sake of whining and those with legitimate gripes. It seems a lot of people want things whacked with the nerf-bat because they want their particular favorite to be the most powerful in game. Ok, I exaggerate a little but it makes my point.

Brawlers and people who like to knife fight will always complain about the long-range mech doing damage from afar. People who like to use range will always complain about the speed builds which can circle them and not be shot.

It other words, it seems everybody has an opinion on why their build isn't functioning like they think it should - and it is amazingly the fault of somebody else.

In general, I think ECM has upset the balance which did exist prior to it being implemented but I also think it will go through a phase where the devs play with it and tweak it so it fits, just like they have everything else. That is the beauty and pain of beta testing.

I'm afraid your suggestion would not stop the whining nor the tweaking. Whether it would help achieve balance is another fair question which only the devs and their collected data can answer.

[Hotthedd]

Willie Sauerland, on 13 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

It is hard to separate the whiners who whine for the sake of whining and those with legitimate gripes. It seems a lot of people want things whacked with the nerf-bat because they want their particular favorite to be the most powerful in game. Ok, I exaggerate a little but it makes my point.

Brawlers and people who like to knife fight will always complain about the long-range mech doing damage from afar. People who like to use range will always complain about the speed builds which can circle them and not be shot.

It other words, it seems everybody has an opinion on why their build isn't functioning like they think it should - and it is amazingly the fault of somebody else.

In general, I think ECM has upset the balance which did exist prior to it being implemented but I also think it will go through a phase where the devs play with it and tweak it so it fits, just like they have everything else. That is the beauty and pain of beta testing.

I'm afraid your suggestion would not stop the whining nor the tweaking. Whether it would help achieve balance is another fair question which only the devs and their collected data can answer.

If I could find a remedy for whining I promise to let the devs know ASAP

[Shibas]

So what's your proposed tactic once they start firing in 2 groups of 3 weapons or 3 groups of 2 weapons right after one another to avert your "increased alpha strike penalty?" They would still be firing everything just slightly off and doing almost the same thing as an alpha strike but in 2 groups?

Also, some of you are confusing alpha striking (all weapons) with group firing (some weapons).

[Pando]

Not a problem

[focuspark]

If you want to "nerf alpha strikes" just add more randomness to the damage location. Size medium lasers in one location hurts any mech but spread that out over 4-6 locations and it's 'meh' damage; especially for a heavy of assault class mech.

If you want the nerf to only impact light mechs, then make the level of randomness based on the attackers speed, the targets speed, and add in a slight penalty for lighter mechs bouncing more (or something).

[Shibas]

focuspark, on 13 December 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

If you want to "nerf alpha strikes" just add more randomness to the damage location. Size medium lasers in one location hurts any mech but spread that out over 4-6 locations and it's 'meh' damage; especially for a heavy of assault class mech.

If you want the nerf to only impact light mechs, then make the level of randomness based on the attackers speed, the targets speed, and add in a slight penalty for lighter mechs bouncing more (or something).

How do you propose randomizing a target location in a game where you have to aim? So I aim for the right leg but randomly hit the left arm? They could do that SSRMs because it just locks on to the target and fires, with lasers/ballistics you are actually aiming the weapon.

[focuspark]

Shibas, on 13 December 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

How do you propose randomizing a target location in a game where you have to aim? So I aim for the right leg but randomly hit the left arm? They could do that SSRMs because it just locks on to the target and fires, with lasers/ballistics you are actually aiming the weapon.

Most FPS do this already. You draw an imaginary circle around the center of the reticle and anything inside that circle is fair game.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

a) Alpha strikes are a valid tactic. If you fire 6 medium lasers and are able to melt a target with it, you have a good aim, the enemy is standing still or it is a combination of that. The armor is already doubled. Imagine how a light mech would perform against a single gauss hit, if we use TT-rules. Shot --> *pop*
What if we introduce the http://www.sarna.net..._Gauss_Rifle_40 ? OP? Not OP?
Later addons to the game will introduce dropships with active weapon platforms. You get hit by 4 PPCs or 4 Gauss rifles. Is this OP? Or did you just made the wrong move?
c) Alpha striking comes with a high risk. You heat is peaking and if you miss, you are a sitting duck. If your heat will not peak and you can constantly alpha, then you loadout is already so thin, that is cannot be called a real alpha.
d) A SRM 6 Cat got a peak dmg output of 90. This is damn high. Do I have a problem with it? No. Why? Because it still need aiming skill, a target that is near and they cannot lock on.

So basicly, it is like 4.5 x AC/20 with damage spreading to your whole mech for the loadout cost of 2 AC/20. When The AC/20 gets its rebalance (faster reload time) the dps will adjust and you get a high dps with point damage on one spot. This could also be called OP - I think, it i valid.

The main problem right now is, that nearly every mech is closing in into brawling range. May it be that you get attacked by a fast scout or that the enemy will just advance to your base, so that you do not have a chance to retreat without getting your base captured. This means, that long range weapons are only effective for a certain time window, until the enemy will go to "advance" which will result in brawling.

If you are good, you can take out the enemy with gauss before it is in range of its SRM 6 pack. You could also try to go reverse and enlarge the time gap, before it is close enough for brawling range. Still, long range weapons do not serve a very good purpose, because the maps are too small and the base cap is just to prominent to do.

SRM6-Cats would be perfectly balanced, if we had maps where you could use your long range weapons and hold the long range. Imagine a map where the enemy must close in while you have long range weapons on an open field. The enemy WILL die in the crossfire of Gauss, LRM, PPCs, Large Lasers.

In a city fight (which is at this point the most prominent kind of map-fight besides caustic valley - and even there I rarely do fights on constant 500 m range) short range weapons have the edge.

On a map with many flanking routes, fast mechs have the advantage.

On an open field, Gauss/Laser-Cats or phracts have an advantage.

In every situation, you have a mech or a loadout, which will excel in a certain tactical and strategical spot.
Alpha stiking is just another part of this mechanic and believe me, in the future, there will be much more combos which will hit you hard. You work is to adapt - in the best case, kill the enemy before it can kill you.

So if you fight again an SRM cat: Kill it with Gauss or LL.
If you fight against a Gauss cat, be fast and try to get it behind cover.
If you fight against ECM-Mech, use LL and Gauss.
If you fight against LRM, use cover or ECM superiority.
If you fight against Autocannons, try to hit them with LRM or streaks or just answer with better skill with your own ACs.

Every tactic got a counter, every position a flaw, every situation an opening. I think, WE have to solve those mysteries and not the Devs. Period.

[Shibas]

focuspark, on 13 December 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Most FPS do this already. You draw an imaginary circle around the center of the reticle and anything inside that circle is fair game.

The problem with that though it it would cause harm then help. Yes, it would lower the effectiveness of aiming but it would be harder to kill light mechs and mechs with smaller frames (or smaller locations, like a catapults side torso). More people would complain that they can't hit a target location effectively and lights "are OP". It would also essentially eliminate sniping of sorts, depending on circle size, but reduce it assuredly. So now a potential head shot from downtown turns into some other location hit. And having different weapon targeting circles would just become ridiculous with mechs that have multiple weapons.

[focuspark]

Shibas, on 13 December 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

The problem with that though it it would cause harm then help. Yes, it would lower the effectiveness of aiming but it would be harder to kill light mechs and mechs with smaller frames (or smaller locations, like a catapults side torso). More people would complain that they can't hit a target location effectively and lights "are OP". It would also essentially eliminate sniping of sorts, depending on circle size, but reduce it assuredly. So now a potential head shot from downtown turns into some other location hit. And having different weapon targeting circles would just become ridiculous with mechs that have multiple weapons.

Since the "circle size" is dependent on your speed, all you have to do is stop moving to accurately pin point your shots.

[HighTest]

If the game had better mechanics for identifying mechs and builds on the battlefield, then Alphas wouldn't be as much of an issue since the range of combat would increase, ultimately making targeting tougher, pulling short-range weapons out of range, etc.

The problem is, due to things like:

- small deathmatch-style maps
- poor targeting/radar displays
- low targeting/radar range
- ECM blocking scanning (and NO, I have no issues with ECM, this is just a contributing factor)
- capture the square scenarios
- DHS not being true DHS meaning long-range high-heat weapons suffer
- etc.

... ultimately, everything results in a close-combat deathmatch. So yes, people can load up on MLASes and SRMs and whatnot, walk up to a mech and unload. The game basically rewards you for doing so.

If the gameplay was more conducive to a tactical encounter, you'd need to rely more on long-range weapons and tactical decisions. People wouldn't have the advantage with blunt short-range stopping power any more. Mechs would have to be build as more general builds and not close-range killers.

If I had a dollar for every time I was in a skirmish and ran up to a Catapult only to find it loaded with SSRMs or SRMs, well, I'd have fewer deaths. Or more MCs.

Now, if I knew it was a brawler before I was 5 metres from its nose, I might have chosen to engage it from afar. But since most matches seem to ultimately degrade into cap rushes or close-range slugfests, it's kind of tough to back off and put some range back in play.

I'm curious to see what the new game modes (and maps?) will bring.

I had my favorite game last night out of the 474 matches I've played. 2 teams of largely heavy/assault mechs in River City sniping each other from afar between the buildings. It was a huge rush. Sure, I died before it ended, but it was so much more fun than doing the same 'rush in headlong and unload' thing as every other match seems to always be. If anyone reading this was in this match -- kudos -- awesome match.

Oh. And to sum up. Don't nerf Alphas. They have always been an integral part of the MW experience, and they in themselves are not the problem. Neither is weapon balance for the most part (except DHS need to be 2.0x so high-heat long-range weapons aren't so nerfed relative to the small stuff.) We just need a better venue in which to use the bigger stuff.

[Shibas]

focuspark, on 13 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Since the "circle size" is dependent on your speed, all you have to do is stop moving to accurately pin point your shots.

Durr, had a memory lapse of the term targeting reticle when I posted that. Sure, that works well enough, but still has the problem that enough people have complained that light mechs are already hard(er) to kill since temporarily removing collision, and with that would ensure more people ******* and moaning about it.

In any case, point still stands that there really doesn't need to be any change to "alpha striking" as the massive heat build up for firing all your weapons is penalty enough. If you want to have a lighter weapon loadout with more heatsinks to cover the continual fire of them, that's your prerogative.