29 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

ECM is doing too much and nullifying too many systems without an effective counter system. I think that is understood by anyone who has actually studied the problem. Solutions, though tend to be wide-ranging, or just as ineffective. The most glaring of all is how ECM is having effects beyond its effective range of 180m. This is the most damaging aspect of this system.

Therefore, I offer this solution. Enhance the Beagle Active Probe to allow it to detect any enemy units protected by ECM as long as it itself is not within a non-countered enemy ECM field. This does not stop ECM from functioning in its effective range, allows it to perform as a scouting enhancement to units not so equipped, and allows a 1.5 ton 2 crit equipment to be offset by a 1.5 ton 2 crit equipment, so it is balanced. Finally, it is in keeping with the concept that BAP is an enhanced sensor suite that should be able to penetrate an ECM effect that is beyond the ECM effective range.

This is both the simplist and most balanced solution to the way ECM is implemented in the game, in my opinion.

[Brandeis]

It's not canon though. According to the TT Rulebooks, the Beagle Active Probe gets jammed by ECM just as easily as regular sensors, the only difference is that a BAP equipped mech knows it is being jammed.

[Coryphee]

Jakob Knight, on 06 December 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

ECM is doing too much and nullifying too many systems without an effective counter system.

What about ECM counter mode ?
What about TAG ?
What about Teamplay ?
What about Heat Vision ?

I really think that ECm is a good implementation, and give a new dimension to the gameplay, fortifying teamplay and communication. So it doesn't need any "nerf" or counter...

But it's just my opinion .

Have fun, and see you on battlefield !

PS : sory for my bad english

[Jakob Knight]

Brandeis, on 06 December 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

It's not canon though. According to the TT Rulebooks, the Beagle Active Probe gets jammed by ECM just as easily as regular sensors, the only difference is that a BAP equipped mech knows it is being jammed.

ECM as implemented, is even farther from canon than what I propose. My suggestion still has ECM jamming BAP -within the effective range of the system-. All the suggestion does is allow BAP to counter the non-canon effect of ECM stealth outside the range ECM should work anyway. One non-canon solution for a non-canon problem, and one requiring the same cost in tonnage and critspace. BAP is otherwise unchanged in the game.

Note that this still leaves ECM jamming lockons and IFF systems within its effective range, as well as blocking BAP, so ECM retains its larger-than-canon abilities. All this does is allow a counter system that both makes sense (BAP are enhanced sensors, and thus should be able to penetrate a basic ECM field when that field is too weak by distance, even if normal sensors cannot), and works as easily as ECM does.

From everything I have considered and looked at, this is the best solution that requires the least change to the game and allows ECM to remain what it has been impemented with, while at the same time costing the unit mounting the counter as much as the unit mounting the cause.

As I said, perfect balance.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 06 December 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[Damocles69]

Op you win the internetz! As an addmitted ecm hater the fist day. Got stompped many times in 8v8 by the 6 atlas ddc rush. Now i have to admit that i love the tactial depth it has added to the game
With the upcomeing tag boost i belive that the exm is ALMOSTcompletly balanced. Your suggestion goes a long way. If i could amend it by saying that bap dose need a buff. I suggest that that outside of the ecm 180 metee dead zone bap users should be able to target and lock on to all mechs in the under the ecmbrella but not the mech with ecm dieectly equiped to the mech. So the 4 ecm equipable mechs are still safe from LRMs unless lit with the new buffed tag. In addtion to makeing bap and lrms relevant again it also makes the ams important again as well. The bap user should not be able to share the targeting info he recives with his teamates. This allows for stealth gameplay and communcation to still be very important. Once the bap equiped mech is inside the 180 meter sphear of infulane of the ecm equipws mech the bap ceases to function.

[Jakob Knight]

Coryphee, on 06 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

What about ECM counter mode ?
What about TAG ?
What about Teamplay ?
What about Heat Vision ?

I really think that ECm is a good implementation, and give a new dimension to the gameplay, fortifying teamplay and communication. So it doesn't need any "nerf" or counter...

But it's just my opinion .

Have fun, and see you on battlefield !

PS : sory for my bad english

ECM counter mode is a non-starter since you are requiring a system to counter itself. That is non-logical, and not a solution.

TAG is non-usable, due to the need to hit the target outside of 180m, and not being able to affect the target within 180m. Also, the short time of effect of the TAG, combined with the need to maintain LOS to a system that has no such requirement makes TAG a non-solution (as well as the requirement that a TAG unit sacrifice significant firepower, whereas the ECM unit sacrifices nothing).

Heat Vision does not allow lock-ons to an ECM unit, and does nothing to counter the system. Again, not a solution.

In short, none of the points you have suggested are workable and balanced solutions. I believe mine is, as it still leaves ECM as a powerful force on the battlefield, but one that can be equally countered outside it's range of effect (what other system in the game has infinite range of effect with such ability? Weapons? Targeting systems? All have ranges and if you go beyond them, it stops being able to affect you).

[Jakob Knight]

Damocles69, on 06 December 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Op you win the internetz! As an addmitted ecm hater the fist day. Got stompped many times in 8v8 by the 6 atlas ddc rush. Now i have to admit that i love the tactial depth it has added to the game
With the upcomeing tag boost i belive that the exm is ALMOSTcompletly balanced. Your suggestion goes a long way. If i could amend it by saying that bap dose need a buff. I suggest that that outside of the ecm 180 metee dead zone bap users should be able to target and lock on to all mechs in the under the ecmbrella but not the mech with ecm dieectly equiped to the mech. So the 4 ecm equipable mechs are still safe from LRMs unless lit with the new buffed tag. In addtion to makeing bap and lrms relevant again it also makes the ams important again as well. The bap user should not be able to share the targeting info he recives with his teamates. This allows for stealth gameplay and communcation to still be very important. Once the bap equiped mech is inside the 180 meter sphear of infulane of the ecm equipws mech the bap ceases to function.

I could see that being possible, though the number of ECM-equipped chassis is going to increase quite a bit, and many of those are going to be full combat assault units like the Atlas, so such a compromise might end up simply being a non-solution very soon. That would be up to the devs, but I think the ability to completely counter only one of the ECM effects outside the area of effect is a balanced counter to ECMs ability to completely counter all enemy targeting in that same situation without it. Leaving the ECM unit invunerable would break that balance, in my opinion. Absolute ability requires absolute counter-ability (unless we want to say that an ECM unit cannot affect a BAP unit at all, in which case we have a singular-invunerability meets singular immunity balance).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 06 December 2012 - 07:17 AM.

[Apoc1138]

Jakob Knight, on 06 December 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

what other system in the game has infinite range of effect with such ability?

ECM doesn't have infinite range - it only protects friendly mechs that stay within 180m and the maximum normal range for detecting someone is 600m which this system reduces to 200m (before bonuses)... none of these numbers are infinite

the only thing I would change in regards to ECM and BAP is that I would make the +15% from the BAP stack on top of the 200m + bonuses from skills and other modules so that you can get it up to and over 300m

Edited by Apoc1138, 06 December 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[Brandeis]

The beagle probe doesn't increase the range at which you detect anything according to TT, it just allows you to detect units that are camouflaged and shut down. It also has a much more limited range than ECM, only 4 hexes, which equates to 120m.

[Ceribus]

I don't get the ECM hate personally, I find them just as easy to shoot as non ECM units. Especially once the brawl has started... hell I've even been getting to the point of getting hits with the LRM without a lock. The system is not nearly as debilitating as you make it out to be, You just have to learn to tust your eyes and let your team know when you se enemies..... given with the current state of communication in the game does make ECM a little overpowered but it they fully implemented C3 I would see no reason to complain about ECM, I think it was a stellar roll out. And for the record I only have one mech with ECM and have played it in maybe 20% of my matches

Edited by Ceribus, 06 December 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Apoc1138, on 06 December 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

ECM doesn't have infinite range - it only protects friendly mechs that stay within 180m and the maximum normal range for detecting someone is 600m which this system reduces to 200m (before bonuses)... none of these numbers are infinite

the only thing I would change in regards to ECM and BAP is that I would make the +15% from the BAP stack on top of the 200m + bonuses from skills and other modules so that you can get it up to and over 300m

Actually, it does, as there is no range limit on detection disruption. Even if they introduce a module that allows for targeting and detection out to 10,000 km, the rules on ECM as introduced into MWO say it will still stop a unit from detecting anything inside the ECM bubble. That is infinite range, as it is affecting units directly beyond the scope of the equipment's stated range of 180m. All my suggestion does is remove that portion of the effect for a unit that puts out an identical amount of tonnage and crits for a system that should provide the function described.

[Syllogy]

You know what's a good counter to ECM? Direct Fire Weapons.

No need for lock on. Just point-and-shoot.

[Jakob Knight]

Brandeis, on 06 December 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

The beagle probe doesn't increase the range at which you detect anything according to TT, it just allows you to detect units that are camouflaged and shut down. It also has a much more limited range than ECM, only 4 hexes, which equates to 120m.

And ECM has no effect on target aquisition, weapons firing, stealth, or normal communications according to the TT. Yet, that is what has been put into MWO. To suggest that the performance of BAP should not be adapted to similar standards while ECM is excempt is hypocracy. To restate: BAP would remain unchanged in function and benefits with the sole exception of taking away the 200m restriction on targeting and detection of ECM units, and that is all. BAP would still be jammed within the range of the ECM field, and ECM would still impose a restriction of 200m on units not equipped with BAP.

I honestly can't see the problem with this, as it makes the fewest changes to the game and allows equal parts advantage and counter to both systems.

[Syllogy]

Jakob Knight, on 06 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

And ECM has no effect on target aquisition, weapons firing, stealth, or normal communications according to the TT. Yet, that is what has been put into MWO. To suggest that the performance of BAP should not be adapted to similar standards while ECM is excempt is hypocracy. To restate: BAP would remain unchanged in function and benefits with the sole exception of taking away the 200m restriction on targeting and detection of ECM units, and that is all. BAP would still be jammed within the range of the ECM field, and ECM would still impose a restriction of 200m on units not equipped with BAP.

I honestly can't see the problem with this, as it makes the fewest changes to the game and allows equal parts advantage and counter to both systems.

ECM is not about countering systems.

ECM is about making LRM's and Streaks a viable support weapon system, not a primary source of team-accumulated damage.

Also, by negating ECM with systems that would be available on ANY mech, this would bring back "MissileWarrior Online".

For the first time since Closed Beta, Missile Boats and Streak Cats have not been the deciding factor in a match.

Edited by Syllogy, 06 December 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Syllogy, on 06 December 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

You know what's a good counter to ECM? Direct Fire Weapons.

No need for lock on. Just point-and-shoot.

Except when you are one of the four Roles in the game...that of Fire Support. Such a role is disabled by the entry of ECM into the game in its current form. My suggestion would return that aspect of the game to use, without the need for more drastic changes or the removal of ECM abilities others have already spent MCs depending on.

To say that all you have to do is not use your weapons is a cop-out. Perhaps you would feel the same if they came out with Blue Globe Generators that provided all the benefits of ECM, and eliminated all damage from Energy Weapons, or Distortion Generators that did likewise but provided immunity from Ballistic damage? I think not.

[Ceribus]

I think once TAGs range increase gets into the game it will solve the issue, no need to add other changes to ECM if it's just LRMs your worried about.

Incase you don't read command chair posts TAG is being increased to 750m an it counters the effect of ECM as long as you personally are not in the enemy ECM bubble

[Jakob Knight]

Syllogy, on 06 December 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

ECM is not about countering systems.

ECM is about making LRM's and Streaks a viable support weapon system, not a primary source of team-accumulated damage.

Also, by negating ECM with systems that would be available on ANY mech, this would bring back "MissileWarrior Online".

For the first time since Closed Beta, Missile Boats and Streak Cats have not been the deciding factor in a match.

They never were, except when the assault units refused to assault, fast units failed to engage the missile units, and there were no direct-fire mechs that knew what they were doing. How many times did I hear about how Gauss-equipped Catapults were determining the outcomes of every battle they were in? How much of an uproar to have them removed from the game?

The only reason you seem to think it was 'missile warrior online' was because those were the one weapon system that didn't fit with the brawler pilot's vision of charging in and slugging it out. So, it was the most visible weapon in the game because of its uniqueness and required different tactics to deal with. And let's face it, there are more ways to counter missiles than any other weapon in the game, even without ECM.

Lastly, you will note that my proposal does not stop ECM from being used within its sphere of influence at all. It will still jam missile systems in that range, so I'd say your prediction that it would somehow render Streaks as usable as before is a bit off.

[Jakob Knight]

Ceribus, on 06 December 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I think once TAGs range increase gets into the game it will solve the issue, no need to add other changes to ECM if it's just LRMs your worried about.

Incase you don't read command chair posts TAG is being increased to 750m an it counters the effect of ECM as long as you personally are not in the enemy ECM bubble

It doesn't matter. The problem with using TAG isn't its range (450 is still pretty good distance), but the inability to hit with the system in combat conditions and the degredation of the mounting mech's firepower. Also, TAG does not permit the use of fire support due to the fact that, even if you get a TAG hit, the effect will expire before any LRM fire support can arrive.

TAG is a system that requires active use, line of sight, affects a single target, takes up a weapon slot a mech may not even have, and does not provide the ability to use indirect fire support. ECM is a system that requires no active use, affects as many targets as are in its range, takes up no weapon slots (or any slots beyond tonnage and crits), and removes a critical role from the game. This is only compounded by the fact that ECM can counter the system that is meant to counter it, rendering the counter a non-solution.

In short, TAG is not the answer. The scales do not balance.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 06 December 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Damocles69]

I think we are loseing sight of the intent of this suggestion. Ecm is fine where it is. Leave it alone. Simply buff the counters TAG and a possible BAP buff

[IceSerpent]

Syllogy, on 06 December 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

ECM is not about countering systems.

ECM is about making LRM's and Streaks a viable support weapon system, not a primary source of team-accumulated damage.

Agreed, but I think it would be better for ECM to make missile boats' life difficult instead of shutting them down completely. Maybe allow for LRM lock if attacker has LOS to target and allow for SSRM lock, but make half of SSRMs miss? Just thinking out loud here...