67 replies to this topic

[Belisarius1]

Banditman, on 17 May 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

If you hit the leg, you hit the leg. This isn't hard to work out. While I do agree that it doesn't make much sense for the leg to not fall off, I understand why they did it that way.

By the same token, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever for a shot that hits the leg to damage the CT or whatever. You hit the leg, and damaged the CT? Why not the head? Or the Right Arm?

Consider the ultimate goal here. The ultimate goal here is to kill the reactor and shut the mech down. That's really the goal. Why are we even talking about legs? Our goal is to shut that mech down completely, not turn it into a slow moving turret.

Well, no. The ultimate goal is to remove your enemy's ability to fight, thus winning the battle. One way of doing that is destroying the reactor. Rendering him facedown and immobile is another.

The step where you suspend sense in favour of gameplay is when you decide that legs cannot be removed. This decision is fine as a gameplay choice, and I agree with it completely; legs falling off completely isn't much fun.

However, it's pretty inconsistent to say that invincible legs are fine but rollover is unrealistic. They're both unrealistic, and that starts the instant you choose to avoid legless 'mechs. Whatever happens from that point forward will require a suspension of disbelief in one way or another.

Edited by Belisarius†, 17 May 2012 - 05:22 AM.

[Grokmoo]

I think additional shots hitting the leg should just have no effect. I'm not too worried about the crippled leg blocking shots. The only other component it might block shots to is the other leg, and I am guessing that once you have taken out one leg, crippling the other one is probably not worth the effort.

[Gigaton]

Grokmoo, on 17 May 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

I think additional shots hitting the leg should just have no effect. I'm not too worried about the crippled leg blocking shots. The only other component it might block shots to is the other leg, and I am guessing that once you have taken out one leg, crippling the other one is probably not worth the effort.

Your 'mech is destroyed in MW:O if your both legs are destroyed (no internal structure remaining*). So if one leg is dead, it's not too bad idea to go for the kill by destroying the other leg, though it obviously depends on what kind of torso damage your target has recieved.

*This makes me wonder what happens if one leg is destroyed and another one gets critical damage that practically disables the remaining leg. Hip damage, for example. Will we get a truly immobile 'mech or will it still crawl fowards at 1km/h using it's two crutches?

Edited by Gigaton, 17 May 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Program 024]

Just reading the various posts on this hot subject and I've come to a certain conclusion. When you destroy a component on an enemy mech, why would you continue to shoot there? If a torso section is destroyed, and they use it as a shield, wouldn't it make it easier to exploit the rear armor of the mech? Say the left torso section has been completely destroyed. So they turn their torso to put the damaged between them and you. Now it is less of a trip to get behind them, especially with the faster mechs. If you don't like him trying to run away as he is using his shield, then blast a leg to hamper movement.

Having experimented with the Table Top a bit, I understand why there is damage transfer. Realistically, a Mech pilot won't target a destroyed area. The mechanic is there to simulate the hit, not being at the destroyed target, but the one next to it.

[Gigaton]

In previous MechWarrior games, people tend to turn their arm/side torso towards incoming fire anyway, even if the sections are intact. Helps the center torso to survive longer.

[MaddMaxx]

We know from the Blogs that 2 Legs = Dead Mech. Why in hell would you continue to shoot an already dead Leg? What possible logic could justify doing it? Shoot the OTHER Leg, or perhaps the Arm with the BIG gun on it...

If a Mech has a BIG hole through it, and you shoot into that hole, should not the Shell/Beam come out the other side unaffected and count as a Miss?

The whole damage transfer thing is from your Dad's MechWarrior.

[Sprouticus]

The mech is now going really slow:

Aim Higher (and get behind him) or Aim at the other leg. If you hit the dead leg, its your fault.

[Aegis Kleais]

Not that I'm questioning the tactical prowess of anyone here but...

If an area that is destroyed doesn't take any more damage.... stop shooting it and shoot something that isn't damaged.

If you take a bite out of a DELICIOUS soft pretzel and then continue to bite the same area, you're gonna be hungry for more.

ManDaisy, on 17 May 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Great I can see the min/ maxers munchins now. No leg armor, slow engine speed so "no real dif between damaged legs and fresh", max heat sinks, and boating up the wazzu with weapons/ missiles . Gah I hate this. If they mean no damage redirection by having the part Blown off completely then fine, but to act as a damage sponge, that kills another sponge, if you know what I mean.

A 15kph double legged Mech is gonna get the [radio edit] beaten out of it. It can't turn around. Just get on it's six and have fun with him. Strip him down to a stump and let him sit there til he chooses to eject. Should be funny as heck to watch.

[Felicitatem Parco]

MaddMaxx, on 17 May 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

We know from the Blogs that 2 Legs = Dead Mech. Why in hell would you continue to shoot an already dead Leg? What possible logic could justify doing it? Shoot the OTHER Leg, or perhaps the Arm with the BIG gun on it...

If a Mech has a BIG hole through it, and you shoot into that hole, should not the Shell/Beam come out the other side unaffected and count as a Miss?

The whole damage transfer thing is from your Dad's MechWarrior.

I'm not suggesting you shoot at an already crippled leg for tactical reasons; it'd be wiser to shoot for the load-bearing leg. I am just wondering, for "immersion's sake" are crippled legs going to be bullet-shields, or will they be transparent to ammo, or will they gather more damage and eventually fail resulting in your limp deteriorating to a standstil?

I like the last one ;-) but it still begs what happens next? "Will the dead limb be a bullet-shield or a bullet-window?"

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 May 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[AlanEsh]

I don't care about leg damage -- run out of leg to shoot, well switch to a torso.

I -do- care about damage transfer from side torsos to center torso, if you're shooting into/through the dead side torso inward toward the center. This has to be modeled.

I'm up in the air about a frontal shot to the LT or RT transferring in to the CT. I don't think it is realistic that a dead hunk of metal (left torso) hit by a laser should just shunt the damage inward. That's not realistic at all. BUT if you are shooting laterally into the side of the mech, then your damage should transfer along the axis of fire.

[Aelos03]

it doesn't matter mech without one leg is so slow that its dead already

[ManDaisy]

I think we can all agree on that bullet shields are a no no.

[Monky]

The easiest way to do this is add a function at twice the total # of damage points it can take before it is considered 'fully destroyed' in TT, which is now 'gimped' in MWO; for example:

Your leg has 10 armor, 10 internal structure. After the armor is blown off, the internals become vulnerable like normal. Leg actuator damage results in gimping, allowing an early gimp. Otherwise, you have to reduce all its internal structure to 0 to 'force' a gimp. At this point, there are now 20 hit points remaining on the limb before it is reduced to 'blown the **** off' state (ie; total of its armor and internal structure). In the situation where you score an early gimp on a leg via actuator destruction, you can either keep wailing on it or switch to the other leg to gimp (the latter being more efficient probably)

In this way, you can provide a fair situation that is equivalent to that damage having been done to the other leg, which would have also scored a kill for the same damage input (provided double gimping is a kill as it is).

For further clarification;

Left Leg has 10 armor, 10 IS.
Right Leg has 10 armor, 10 IS
Takes AC20 shot to Left Leg.
Left Leg is 'gimped' as it has no more IS
Left Leg now can take 20 more damage before it's blown off and mech is knocked out of the fight

OR

Right Leg can be reduced to 0 armor and 0 IS and be knocked out of the fight as both legs are now 'gimped'. Losing an actuator would also produce this status, meaning any shot after the armor is removed could have a chance of gimping you and knocking you out of the fight.

These numbers are abstractions also, so please don't take them as a literal situation you might actually see in combat.

Edited by monky, 17 May 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

ManDaisy, on 17 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I think we can all agree on that bullet shields are a no no.

Ehhhh.... not really.

Tactically, the idea of shooting a destroyed area and EXPECTING it to do some kinda damage seems a bit off to me.

[Gigaton]

Aegis Kleais™, on 17 May 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Tactically, the idea of shooting a destroyed area and EXPECTING it to do some kinda damage seems a bit off to me.

It also sounds off to expect it would block damage at all. It's structural integrity is gone. I'm not expecting to see damage transfer if you wouldn't hit the CT, but if you would hit the CT then yeah.

I also liked PP suggestion from before for such damage to cause internal damage directly. Compartmented sections with armour inbetween are an artefact of the TT.

[Felicitatem Parco]

monky, on 17 May 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

The easiest way to do this is add a function at twice the total # of damage points it can take before it is considered 'fully destroyed' in TT, which is now 'gimped' in MWO; for example:

(example)

I agree with everything EXCEPT the part where completely destroying 1 leg will "knock you out of the fight..." I just think it should render you a one-legged turret.

[Aegis Kleais]

Gigaton, on 17 May 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

It also sounds off to expect it would block damage at all. It's structural integrity is gone. I'm not expecting to see damage transfer if you wouldn't hit the CT, but if you would hit the CT then yeah.

I also liked PP suggestion from before for such damage to cause internal damage directly. Compartmented sections with armour inbetween are an artefact of the TT.

How is a destroyed thing "blocking" damage? The phrase "You're beating a dead horse" comes to mind. It's not gonna get any more dead. You might beat it into a fine mash with more damage, but it's not like any of the damage is going to jump to another horse"*

*No horses were harmed in the production of this post. A cat was kicked, a mean expression was exchanged with a pitbull, and a hamster was flung into a ceiling fan, but he missed all the blades and scampered off under a dresser.

[Monky]

Prosperity Park, on 17 May 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

I agree with everything EXCEPT the part where completely destroying 1 leg will "knock you out of the fight..." I just think it should render you a one-legged turret.

The reason I say knocked out of the fight is because at that point, you've dealt the same amount of damage it would require to gimp BOTH legs anyways.

[ManDaisy]

For example, if your right torso is destroyed , people should be able to hit your center torso internal structure by firing thru your right torso since it has nothing left to effectively soak up any damage. Picture a shish kabob being screwered from the side and not the front. As stated before firing thru a destroyed torso should transfer damage directly to the internals of the center torso and bypass any armor because there is no internal armor compartmentalizing the the torsos into three pieces.

Edited by ManDaisy, 17 May 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[Monky]

Aegis Kleais™, on 17 May 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

How is a destroyed thing "blocking" damage? The phrase "You're beating a dead horse" comes to mind. It's not gonna get any more dead. You might beat it into a fine mash with more damage, but it's not like any of the damage is going to jump to another horse"*

*No horses were harmed in the production of this post. A cat was kicked, a mean expression was exchanged with a pitbull, and a hamster was flung into a ceiling fan, but he missed all the blades and scampered off under a dresser.

I think he's not trying to say the damage should transfer to some other portion, but a savvy mechwarrior could abuse this to protect the fully functional leg with a physical barrier (the dead leg) by rotating the direction his legs are facing.

Edited by monky, 17 May 2012 - 08:49 AM.