19 replies to this topic

[Aldon]

Can we please adjust the engine size rules. The current setup offends even fantasy logic. I understand why some limitations are needed but it is just painful currently.

A jenner can run a bigger engine than most Awesomes?

A 100 Ton Atlas can't run a 400 engine?

Any ideas?

(Added: If speedtweak is really adding 10% max speed then I learned math in an alternate universe.)

Edited by Aldon, 13 December 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Elkarlo]

Especially when the Atlas Chassie is lore wise able to fit an Engine ratet with 400 ( AS-7k2).

[Tastian]

Think about it as some mechs were created top to bottom for more speed. In other words, let's pretend that you could force your mechanics to stick a larger engine into an Awesome or Atlas. When you try to move at top speed in the Atlas in your new shiny 400 engine, the 'muscles' in the legs snap because the leg actuators weren't designed to handle that kind of pressure. Or the mech topples over because the gyro can't keep the top part of the body balanced when the legs go that quickly. The Jenner's structure and actuators, on the other hand, were designed top to bottom to be a speed demon.

But, this isn't real life so we can ignore all that. Think about it more of a way to differentiate each mech and variant. One thing I love about MWO is how each variant has different hardpoint layouts. Otherwise, mechs of the same tonnage would just differ by look and cheese builds would abound.

[blinkin]

they allowed larger engines in mechs during the closed beta. i had a catapult with an xl 375. it was broken, 93kph base. the game was not even a challenge. the engine limits are there to give light mechs a fighting chance. they do have different variants of mechs that allow different engines in some cases.

and genners are designed to be a walking engine, where an atlas is designed to be a bullet sponge.

[Homeless Bill]

Aldon, on 13 December 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

but it is just painful currently.

Why? You never explain why the current system is bad. What balance issues resulting from engine size offend you?

Because you seem to be arguing for a less restrictive system. One where any 'mech can run with any engine. Or maybe only large 'mechs can run big engines? I don't really know, but they're all bad suggestions. Lights need speed, and the rest of 'mechs need diversity.

I like that only one Awesome variant can rock a huge engine. I like that they're actually trying to make different 'mechs and variants feel different. 80-90kph Atlas? **** that.

To me, this post is the same as the thread that suggested we get rid of hardpoint restrictions and let you mount whatever weapons you want on whatever 'mech you want, wherever you want. Would it be convenient? Sure, but it would make 90% of 'mechs redundant.

At the end of the day, it's there for balance and diversity, and it works well.

Also, before any of that "real world" **** starts to creep into this conversation, I want you to think about how preposterous it is to suggest that large, slow, bipedal robots using traditional ballistics rule the battlefield 1000 years from now. Fun/balance > realism.

[Willie Sauerland]

I think the limits are because of the current ~140kph speed cap. Should that ever get lifted, I think the problem will solve itself as the 400 engines will be able to fit again and Jenners will be able to get up over 200kph...

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 13 December 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[Szaesse]

There is also a reasonable explanation for why an Atlas can't carry a 400 engine and a Jenner can. It's called internal space restrictions.

Every Mech is designed in a particular way. There are certain aspects of the Mech that would require a complete and total refit to actually allow for a larger engine. The Atlas is designed with a specific amount of space for it's engine. That space is relatively limited, as the Atlas is designed to pack LOADS of weapons, ammo and armor. Thus, the compartment for the engine would be a much smaller percentage of it's body. On the other hand, the Jenner was designed to have much more of it's body taken up by it's engine.

The example of an Atlas variant that allows for a 400 engine does not mean that ALL Atlas' should be able to mount one. That particular variant was specifically redesigned to allow for the 400. Just like each individual variant has specified hardpoints. You can't pilot a CTF-1X with 2 ballistic weapons because the 1X is not designed to wield 2 ballistic weapons. If you want that particular layout, you need a 3D, a 4X or an IM.

And to Homeless Bill.... technically, there is actually a company currently designing a "Mech" in the United States. It uses a large bore diesel engine as it's power source. When I last checked in on it, they were having issues designing an ankle actuator that would allow for a properly mobile foot while still being strong enough to carry the tons of machine on top of it. But Mech's may actually be something we see within our lifetime, even if they only start showing up near the end of it.

[Treckin]

I believe the OP means that the speed limits are fine as is.

The Jenner SHOULD only do 150kph,

It should however get there with a 2xx engine not a 300xl

The atlas SHOULD only be able to get to ~65kph

however with the xl400 not the 360.

The weights of the engines need to be balanced accordingly, as well as the heatsink counts.

Likely the underlying system could simply be based on POWER OUTPUT and TOTAL MECH WEIGHT.

As it is now its not based on anything, nor is it internally consistent. Its completely arbitrary.

Edited by Treckin, 13 December 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Treckin, on 13 December 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I believe the OP means that the speed limits are fine as is.

The Jenner SHOULD only do 150kph,

It should however get there with a 2xx engine not a 300xl

The atlas SHOULD only be able to get to ~65kph

however with the xl400 not the 360.

The weights of the engines need to be balanced accordingly, as well as the heatsink counts.

Likely the underlying system could simply be based on POWER OUTPUT and TOTAL MECH WEIGHT.

As it is now its not based on anything, nor is it internally consistent. Its completely arbitrary.

Why? All this will do is give Jenner extra free tonnage and less extra engine heatsinks, while giving Atlas less free tonnage with one more in-engine heatsink. What's the point?

[blinkin]

Treckin, on 13 December 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I believe the OP means that the speed limits are fine as is.

The Jenner SHOULD only do 150kph,

It should however get there with a 2xx engine not a 300xl

The atlas SHOULD only be able to get to ~65kph

however with the xl400 not the 360.

The weights of the engines need to be balanced accordingly, as well as the heatsink counts.

Likely the underlying system could simply be based on POWER OUTPUT and TOTAL MECH WEIGHT.

As it is now its not based on anything, nor is it internally consistent. Its completely arbitrary.

the OP sounds very much like he just wants to be allowed to put larger engines in the larger mechs he says nothing about rebalancing.

i have several mechs including genners, catapults, hunchbacks, and an atlas. your statement "As it is now its not based on anything, nor is it internally consistent. Its completely arbitrary." unless i am completely misunderstanding you, is a load of crap.

genner + 280 engine = 128kph
hunchback + 200 engine = 64kph
catapult + 315 engine = 78kph
atlas + 280 engine = 48kph

the tonnage and engine power are very closely tied to speed, in fact now that i look at some of the number comparisons it could be simple division they are using.

engine/tonnage*(speed constant)=kph

[Tokra]

Well, there is a rule for engine size and speed.

Its:
Mech weight * speed = engine size.

Take the jenner for example:
35t (mech weight) * 8 (gives the 128 kph from walk speed 8 * 1,5 hex/turn * 30m * 6 * 60) = 280.
Its a bit difficult, because its the other way around. If you know the TT rules its easier.
The engine size is calculated from mech weight * walking speed. If you want a mech with a walking speed of 8, you need a 280 engine in a 35t Mech.
A walking speed of 8 give you a running speed of 12 (8*1.5). A running speed of 12 means this mech can run 12 hex (30m each) in one turn (10 sec). => 12*30m = 360m/10sec. Mean 36 m/s. Multiply this with 3600 and you get the 128 kph.

And this is the reason why heavier mechs need so much bigger engines to get the speed.
For example the Atlas: 100t. walk speed 3 gives an 300 engine.
Walk speed of 3 gives run speed of 4.5 (3*1.5) (in the TT it is round up, but not in MWO, so this give these numbers). 4.5 * 30 * 360= 48.6 kph.

This rule is great to set up the speed of the mech in relation to the weight of the chassie. Lighter mechs can go faster and heavier mechs need heavier engines to reach the same. In addition is the engine weight going up exponential.
This way heavier mechs just cant reach the same end speed.


The reason for the weight limits is to bind them to the base speed of the mech variant. You can only go x factor faster as the basic engine of the original mech was. For assaults its a factor of 1.2 for light its 1.7.
Means a mech cant go faster than this factor.
The second limit is 8.5 times the mech weight. An engine cant be bigger than 8.5 * mech weight. This is the reason a jenner cant fit bigger engines as 300. And the same reason will limit the spider really hard. This 8.5 factor give a mech the max speed of 137.7 kph (8.5 * 1.5 * 30 * 360).

Mech construction can be really easy if you know the construction rules and the reason how and why its calculated this way.

[Aldon]

Hi Guys,

I'm not crying for faster mechs. I want the rules to be consistent and simple. Adding the arbitrary multipliers to figure max engine size for a variant is weak-sauce.

[Kraven Kor]

Aldon, on 17 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Hi Guys,

I'm not crying for faster mechs. I want the rules to be consistent and simple. Adding the arbitrary multipliers to figure max engine size for a variant is weak-sauce.

I respectfully disagree.

The rules are consistent and simple: Max Engine Rating is Stock Engine Rating for a given variant * 1.2

SImple. Consistent. And enforces role warfare, to an extent.

I could argue for some tweaks, but even your Atlas example would work - if they add the AS7-K2 variant, it will come stock with a 400 Rated engine, giving you an Atlas that can run a 400.

You have to remember - the Jenner is basically an Engine with some legs, armor, and a few guns stuck on for good measure.

The Atlas is a walking wall of death, which happens to need a big engine.

[focuspark]

Kraven Kor, on 17 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

The Atlas is a damage sponge, which happens to need a big engine.

There fixed that for ya. :-)

[Aldon]

Kraven Kor, on 17 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

I respectfully disagree.

The rules are consistent and simple: Max Engine Rating is Stock Engine Rating for a given variant * 1.2

SImple. Consistent. And enforces role warfare, to an extent.

I could argue for some tweaks, but even your Atlas example would work - if they add the AS7-K2 variant, it will come stock with a 400 Rated engine, giving you an Atlas that can run a 400.

You have to remember - the Jenner is basically an Engine with some legs, armor, and a few guns stuck on for good measure.

The Atlas is a walking wall of death, which happens to need a big engine.

The multiplier is not 1.2 That is only for Assaults only I believe. You have basically proven my point. It is arbitrary and it needs to be tweaked.

[Kraven Kor]

Aldon, on 18 December 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

The multiplier is not 1.2 That is only for Assaults only I believe. You have basically proven my point. It is arbitrary and it needs to be tweaked.

It isn't arbitrary and it is the same across the board (to my understanding - citation needed either way I suppose.)

[Zyllos]

All mechs have a maximum engine cap of:

Mech Weight * 1.8

Then all mechs have another cap based on weight class and default engine:

Lights - Engine Rating * 1.5
Mediums - Engine Rating * 1.4
Heavies - Engine Rating * 1.3
Assaults - Engine Rating * 1.2

The smallest of the two caps is chosen.

Edited by Zyllos, 18 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Velba]

Jenner......

[Bolide]

I like what they've done with the engine weight caps. If you want a faster mech, you can do it. If you want a significantly faster mech, you have will likely have to buy a varient with an XL engine.

But you don't have to keep that XL engine. You can replace it with a standard engine and give up weapons/armor for survivability.

One thing along the lines of what people said about your leg actuators snapping if pressed too hard is the Gyro that keeps your mech from falling on it's face weighs more the higher rating your engine has. It's invisible in the current mechlab, but something to keep in mind.

If you want a faster version of your favorite mech wait for them to release more varients and hero mechs.

Who knows, maybe in the future there will be some further customization options if you spend MC, but I think that could unbalance things in the long run.

I'm still longing for a 5/8 jump capable medium for all of you who play Tabletop.

[Kraven Kor]

Bolide, on 18 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

I like what they've done with the engine weight caps. If you want a faster mech, you can do it. If you want a significantly faster mech, you have will likely have to buy a varient with an XL engine.

But you don't have to keep that XL engine. You can replace it with a standard engine and give up weapons/armor for survivability.

One thing along the lines of what people said about your leg actuators snapping if pressed too hard is the Gyro that keeps your mech from falling on it's face weighs more the higher rating your engine has. It's invisible in the current mechlab, but something to keep in mind.

If you want a faster version of your favorite mech wait for them to release more varients and hero mechs.

Who knows, maybe in the future there will be some further customization options if you spend MC, but I think that could unbalance things in the long run.

I'm still longing for a 5/8 jump capable medium for all of you who play Tabletop.

It isn't even about XL / not XL. It is about the base engine rating of the variant. XL helps because you can fit a bigger engine and sacrifice less, but the max engine rating is not affected - if the max is 360, that is a standard or XL 360.