49 replies to this topic

[zverofaust]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 December 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

I wrote about an approach for this back during CLosed Beta as well, and it has come up occassionally in other t hread and by other posters as well.

I think it fits the original game rules as well as the lore better to have a low heat capacity and a high heat dissipaton.

Mechanically speaking, to implement this in MW:O, you could basically set your heat threshold much lower than it is now. Instead of using a threshold of 30+heat sinks, something like heat capacity = 3/4 your heat sinks would work for this purpose.

So if you have exactly as many heat sinks as yo uwould need to dissipate all the heat all your weapons generate, you could still not fire them all at once, because you would produce more heat than your capacity. But, you could still chain fire them, as after a few seconds you have fired your first group of weapons, their heat would be dissipated, you could fire your second group, and there heat would be dissipated before the first group of weapons is ready again.

A non-heat neutral mech would instead use these groups for different range brackets, not able to fire them all at once without overheating risk.

But to have any reasonable amounts of weapons (e.g. the type of weapon loadouts that are typical for Battletech) under this paradagim, the heat dissipation would need to be much higher than it is now (about 2-3 times as high as now.)

I don't think we'll see it happen... Not with the speed other game balance changes have been done so far. The Devs have settled for their system.

If only there was a way to make your own MW:O server with your own game rules...

Sadly I agree. Throughout the entire development process of MWO that I've seen, PGI has repeatedly implemented first-pass, quasi-placeholder features and game mechanics, and then quietly made them permanent/finalized core mechanics with little to no alteration.

Edited by zverofaust, 14 December 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[Wizard Steve]

It's all down to play style. You can alpha every now and then or you can split your weapons into groups and fire them either as appropriate for range or as your heat capacity will allow. It's not the system that favours limiting the frequency of fire, it's the players that choose to play that way.

You can build a very hot mech and be selective with which weapons you fire. The current implementation allows that.

I see no need for change here.

[Plavis]

zverofaust, on 13 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

There's an important distinction between Volume and Frequency of fire, and I feel MWO's current heat system is skewed heavily towards limitations on Frequency and not Volume, and that this is uncharacteristic of Mechwarrior game design.

In simple terms, Frequency of fire can be described as how often Mechs can fire their weapons. We all know this isn't very long. Generally, we spend our time in-game popping out of cover, unleashing repeated torrents of weapons fire before overheating and retiring to cover to cool down before repeating the process. Usually, all weapons (range permitting) are fired at targets to deal a maximum amount of damage before Overheating starts to force us to disengage.

In other words, there is no limit on Volume of Fire while firing; only the Frequency of how long we can keep that Volume up.

What I think is more accurate to Mechwarrior (along with providing a better, more fluid and interactive gaming experience) would be to put the impetus on limiting Volume rather than Frequency.

Ironically this can be done by adapting a more accurate representation of Battletech Heat, but this is more coincidence than by design. In BT, every turn, weapons and other actions added heat; at the end of the turn, Heatsinks subtracted heat. If you generated more heat than your heatsinks could handle, you exploded. This rarely happened; overheating pretty much only ever happened on purpose, during the most intense battles, as an active choice by the pilot during a desperate situation -- or just complete incompetence.

More importantly, so long as the pilot stayed within the confines of their heatsink capability, they were almost never at risk of overheating (barring external, unforeseen effects like being doused with burning jet fuel). A Mech could happily blaze away with a few -- but almost never all -- of its weapons for an indefinite period of time.

This has/had a very interesting (in my opinion) side effect on the design of Battlemechs: Many were designed to "run hot", with more weapons than their heatsinks could manage (if they used them all). Instead, their armaments were designed around the principle of multi-role capability, with different sets of weapons designed for different sets of circumstances that allowed the pilot to pick and choose which weapons he used during an engagement. At long range he'd use long range weapons; at short range, he'd use short range weapons. This created a very interesting dynamic in both Battletech and past Mechwarrior games, in that pilots had to choose which weapons were most appropriate to use in any given situation. They didn't just blast everything at once hoping for maximum damage before withdrawing behind a rock to cool down; players actively decided whether they wanted to use their AC/20, more powerful but harder to aim, or their bank of Medium Lasers, potentially less damage, but easier to hit a smaller moving target. He couldn't use both: He had to choose, and that choice added real, valuable tactical complexity to the game.

This decision-making process is almost nonexistent in MWO. The heat system is designed not to limit Volume, as in BT/past MW games, but to limit the Frequency at which we can fire our guns; combat does not involve much decision, but pure reaction to external conditions.

How can this decision-making process be reintroduced to MWO? Quite simply, I feel: By reducing the Heat Threshold (the maximum amount of heat before shutdown) and increasing Heat Dissipation (how fast generated heat goes away). Make it harder to inflict maximum-damage full alpha strikes of all weapons, while promoting the decision-making process of managing constant and sustained fire.

I feel this will improve gameplay for all comers.

Thank you for your time.

I see some 1 getting owned by Alpha cat here, sweet tears, guess what this dosent bother me at all it will only affect no skill Alpha pilots, my current build and piloting style allows my Alpha cat 6 Alpha strikes in a row, even if they implement this it wont affect me cose i might be doing max of 3 or 4 alphas in a row instead of 6 im fine whit that, i still can outmanuver and out turn my enemy, and my namuvering time is enought for the incresed heat dissipation suggested to give me another full 4 alphas.
Buttom line this dosent nurf alpha cats at all if thats what u want but it will be more benificial cose of the increased heat dessipation, then you will find more alpha builds like 8 medium lazer alpha hit and run hunchback, alpha hit and run dual AC20 cats ecetera.

[JimTheRat]

This is an interesting concept. Don't really know that I agree with it, but it's worth discussing. Maybe the DHS/SHS divide could come into this somehow? EG, DHS give you a lower heat threshold along with the higher dissipation rate, something like that?

Edited by Levesque, 14 December 2012 - 02:25 AM.

[CocoaJin]

This would certainly make engagements feel more MechWarrior-ish...but it'll make matches last much too long. Oh noes, would we have to get rid of the double armor for all and 1/2 damage buffs for lights?

I always felt that any game that required too mant band-****, constant tinkering, and heavy handed nerfing and buffing was a victim of flawed core mechanics.

Its funny how a small core mechanic change can effectivly unravel and roll back almost every heavy handed, non-canon "tweak" that has plagued the came since Closed Beta on.

Benefits:
Much more canon damage outputs, while maintaining the customer's desire to frequently pew-pew.
Fewer boats
A move closer to TT/Canon ideals
More thoughtful and intelligent play


Drawbacks:
Will continue to encourage Gauss and Streak builds. At least Gauss goes pop when damaged, Streaks still suffer from poor firing mechanics that makes it too easy to ripple off automagic missiles almost non-stop(too much benefit for the effort required).

[Joseph Mallan]

Undead Bane, on 13 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Bumping your post... What have I become? =)

Unbiased? Heat IS broken, It needs to be re implemented. Whether we like or hate Zvero he is right, Heat needs to work more like TT. I still think the length of the turn is what is wrecking it. A turn is movement/fire/(recycle)heat phase. Then wash rinse repeat. If you have the sinks to cover spamming 4 Mediums you should never shut down. But add an an LRM 10 and you would build heat and eventually shut down. Few Mechs are designed fire and shut down instantly!

[zverofaust]

Plavis, on 14 December 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

I see some 1 getting owned by Alpha cat here, sweet tears, guess what this dosent bother me at all it will only affect no skill Alpha pilots, my current build and piloting style allows my Alpha cat 6 Alpha strikes in a row, even if they implement this it wont affect me cose i might be doing max of 3 or 4 alphas in a row instead of 6 im fine whit that, i still can outmanuver and out turn my enemy, and my namuvering time is enought for the incresed heat dissipation suggested to give me another full 4 alphas.
Buttom line this dosent nurf alpha cats at all if thats what u want but it will be more benificial cose of the increased heat dessipation, then you will find more alpha builds like 8 medium lazer alpha hit and run hunchback, alpha hit and run dual AC20 cats ecetera.

Levesque, on 14 December 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

This is an interesting concept. Don't really know that I agree with it, but it's worth discussing. Maybe the DHS/SHS divide could come into this somehow? EG, DHS give you a lower heat threshold along with the higher dissipation rate, something like that?

That's a very interesting idea and would help differentiate SHS/DHD into a "sidegrade" relationship. PGI could even keep heat as-is (for Standard Heatsinks), and implementing this ability for DHS alone.

An important factor for me is that the idea helps limit "downtime" during gameplay. I'd rather PGI stayed far, far away from promoting any playstyle that, frankly, limits play, at least to this degree.

The current heat system is in a way no different than standard FPS "reload" in BF3/CoD etc; you fire all the bullets in your gun and then have to reload for a couple seconds, pretty much the same dynamic as firing your alpha-strikes until you have to cool down for a few seconds. Would be nice to get something a little different.

Joseph Mallan, on 14 December 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

Unbiased? Heat IS broken, It needs to be re implemented. Whether we like or hate Zvero he is right, Heat needs to work more like TT. I still think the length of the turn is what is wrecking it. A turn is movement/fire/(recycle)heat phase. Then wash rinse repeat. If you have the sinks to cover spamming 4 Mediums you should never shut down. But add an an LRM 10 and you would build heat and eventually shut down. Few Mechs are designed fire and shut down instantly!

I just about died reading this. Joseph Mallan agrees with me? I need to take a few minutes and re-examine my life choices. I've obviously done something very, very wrong (or right? Either way it's wrong!)

[MustrumRidcully]

zverofaust, on 14 December 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

The current heat system is in a way no different than standard FPS "reload" in BF3/CoD etc; you fire all the bullets in your gun and then have to reload for a couple seconds, pretty much the same dynamic as firing your alpha-strikes until you have to cool down for a few seconds. Would be nice to get something a little different.

That's an interesting comparison and may frighten some people that always say "this isn't Call of Duty, this is a really complex and challenging game and to enjoy it and play it you must be better than other casual ADS kids these days".

Oh, wait, now I jinxed it.

[Teljaxx]

I think that something like this would work quite well. I have had way too many times when I fire enough to nearly max out my heat, then have to go on a grand sightseeing tour of the map just to cool back down enough to re-engage. The trial mechs are the worst for this, since they are severely under-cooled to be effective without doing this in the current system.

I do not like that the best strategy under the current heat system seems to be to Alpha Strike until you are about to shut down, then hide until you can do it again. I also think that your system would help make varied loadouts more effective, instead of the lots-of-only-one-gun setups that are so common currently.

Another thing that I think would work well is if each mech had a different maximum heat capacity, like in MW4, and maybe a difference in heatsink effectiveness or a base dissipation bonus. Like give one mech 40 max heat and 0.8 Heatsink effect, while another has 20 max heat and 1.5 heatsink effect. This both adds more variety to different mechs, and allow some to have high heat Alpha builds, while others are better at chain fire.

[Razegerogero]

*thumbup* +1

zverofaust, on 14 December 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

The current heat system is in a way no different than standard FPS "reload" in BF3/CoD etc; you fire all the bullets in your gun and then have to reload for a couple seconds, pretty much the same dynamic as firing your alpha-strikes until you have to cool down for a few seconds. Would be nice to get something a little different.

Heh, I rather liked this comparison. Even if slightly exaggerated, I think it's quite accurate.

I suppose the heat system can be thought of as just an added abstraction over the common, very basic mechanic of high DPS vs. high damage for single shot. In well-balanced RPGs and strategy games, high damage stuff always has much lower DPS or other drawbacks, such as range, cost or in this case, heat. For example, in Total Annihilation's modern rebirth, Balanced Annihilation, the highest single-shot damage vehicle has 30% less DPS, moves slower, has slightly shorter range -and- costs more than the common assault vehicle. Still, this one-shot vehicle in many maps is absolutely mandatory to have and micro it to fire once, then quickly disengage for cover.

Or in Dungeons and Dragons (...not that I was much of a fan, that is a very broken system) spells with duration do up to two times the damage of a spell with an immediate damage.

Maybe it was more realistic to put in a less-drastic tweak? Say, lower basic heat threshold by 10% before sinks added and then add 10% to head dissipation after sinks are added. Even though I have only played this a very short time, it's been rare to see an effective configurations in-game that didn't rely on a single-time haul of fire before cover. Of course, this should always remain useful, since firing once means you can immediately take cover compared to firing constantly. But the cumulative effect seems to put strong emphasis on single-fire.

Edited by Razegerogero, 14 December 2012 - 03:44 AM.

[Belisarius1]

You keep saying "in past MW games".

In past MW games, that never happened. 'Mechs in MW have always been designed to deploy the bulk of their armament at a single range. Instead of trying to deal with every situation, it is better to dominate a specific situation and then do everything you can to be in that situation. That's "real, valuable tactical complexity" as well.

I do think the heat scale is poorly designed, but the dearth of multi-range weapon systems has very little to do with that. It has everything to do with the fact that a 'mech which can only use half its guns will lose to a 'mech which can use all its guns. Weapons which I do not intend to use are wasted tonnage.

---

Edited by Belisarius1, 14 December 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[Wolfways]

Belisarius1, on 14 December 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

a 'mech which can only use half its guns will lose to a 'mech which can use all its guns.

---

Which is why no mechs should be able to use all their guns at the same time.

[thenightisdark]

Grissnap, on 13 December 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I wanted to like your idea, but thinking through the ramifications it would only push people towards low heat cost, high fire rate weapons. In other words, nerfing lasers and buffing streaks/LRMs. Any player using lasers and other high heat cost weapons would have to play in the way you described, but those who chose low heat cost weapons would not only be unrestricted in their play style, the would also get a boost in relative power.

That sounds more like a step back than a step forward (limits player choice while still not adding depth in strategy).

I think with the level of customization we can get in our mechs there are not a lot of options for capturing the feel you are looking for.

Counter arguement:

Fine, everyone goes to Streaks (270m Range) SSRMs (lol ECM) LRM (lol ECM)

Whats the problem? Those weapons are currently some of the weakest in the game, due to ECM. They all have counters, effective counters. LRMs are well restricted by ECM, and SRM's of both kinds are only close range weapons. Stay out of 270 meters to counter.

[Wizard Steve]

Belisarius1, on 14 December 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

a 'mech which can only use half its guns will lose to a 'mech which can use all its guns. Weapons which I do not intend to use are wasted tonnage.

Having killed 5 mechs in one game using nothing more than a Centurion with two Medium Pulse Lasers, I beg to differ.

[thenightisdark]

Plavis, on 14 December 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

Buttom line this dosent nurf alpha cats at all if thats what u want

Uh, I dont know how you got "nerf alpha cats" out of the OP.

You are asking if nurf alpha cats is what is wanted? No. That is not what is wanted.

What is wanted is fewer alphas before you over heat. Spesifically, 1 or 2 alphas from said alpha cat. Then you manuver, cool down, and do it again. As you say,

Plavis, on 14 December 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

i still can outmanuver and out turn my enemy, and my namuvering time is enought for the incresed heat dissipation

Perfect!

[Joseph Mallan]

zverofaust, on 14 December 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

I just about died reading this. Joseph Mallan agrees with me? I need to take a few minutes and re-examine my life choices. I've obviously done something very, very wrong (or right? Either way it's wrong!)

It doesn't matter the messenger, if the message is right, it is right. You still need to re evaluate your life and the choices you make though

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 December 2012 - 04:23 AM.

[UXB]

Disagree.... I prefer to build 'Mechs with a fairly sustainable weapons/heat sink balance, and I actually keep an eye on the heat meter and reduce fire output until heat dissipates. Works for me... I rarely overheat and don't usually need to throttle back much, or for very long.

Stop trying to fire 4 PPCs as fast as you can, and life improves.

[thenightisdark]

UXB, on 14 December 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Disagree.... I prefer to build 'Mechs with a fairly sustainable weapons/heat sink balance, and I actually keep an eye on the heat meter and reduce fire output until heat dissipates. Works for me... I rarely overheat and don't usually need to throttle back much, or for very long.

Stop trying to fire 4 PPCs as fast as you can, and life improves.

You dont see a problem with

UXB, on 14 December 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

I rarely overheat and don't usually need to throttle back much, or for very long.

The point would be to MAKE you throttle back lots, or you would overheat all the time. Why have a heat meter if you rarely overheat and dont need to throttle back? Just remove it already.

[Wolfways]

UXB, on 14 December 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Stop trying to fire 4 PPCs as fast as you can, and life improves.

lol try two ERPPC's as your only weapons with 20DHS and still hardly firing.

[Lanessar]

Wizard Steve, on 14 December 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Having killed 5 mechs in one game using nothing more than a Centurion with two Medium Pulse Lasers, I beg to differ.

Honestly, what is it with MPL/ML? They are always cited as the weapon that breaks with 2.0 DHS. They are cited in most power builds (7 MPL awesome). It's the boating weapon of choice. You might toss an LL or two in there, but most of the Atlas loadouts include at least 4 of them.

Seems like that is a weapon to fix, rather than tune the heat system so you can't do XYZ with a mech sporting medium lasers.

As far as the OP, I've been in support of a fix on heat, and his system seems to be the route of choice.

Honestly, the devs put 2.0 HS in the engine (buffing lights) and 1.4 HS outside the engine (nerfing assaults/heavies) and cite that the Cicada ML or Jenner ML build break under full 2.0 DHS. What... the... frack?

When all you'd have to do is make engine DHS 1.4 and externals 2.0, and you'd have assaults with better heat efficiency, lights with limited heat efficiency. Can the developers not figure that out? It's a pretty simple idea.

Someone on the balancing committee is mentally challenged.

"We are going to offer the full buff for light mechs, and make sure external DHS (the ones used by heavier mechs) don't function, as light mechs under 2.0 DHS break.game balance".

This is literally what has been posted. Insanity. And it hasn't even been tweaked in the last month and a half.

Edited by Lanessar, 14 December 2012 - 04:34 AM.