49 replies to this topic

[Belisarius1]

Lanessar, on 14 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Honestly, what is it with MPL/ML? They are always cited as the weapon that breaks with 2.0 DHS. They are cited in most power builds (7 MPL awesome). It's the boating weapon of choice. You might toss an LL or two in there, but most of the Atlas loadouts include at least 4 of them.

...did you seriously just quote a dude flopping his epeen on the table and then go on a balance rant? His two medium pulse lasers are not the problem.

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To the e-peen wielder, the discussion is obviously only useful assuming equal skill. There are segments of the playerbase which are so incompetent that I could probably kill them with machine guns. That doesn't mean MGs aren't bad.

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Edited by Belisarius1, 14 December 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[Lanessar]

Belisarius1, on 14 December 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

...did you seriously just quote a dude flopping his epeen on the table and then go on a balance rant? His two medium pulse lasers are not the problem.

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To the e-peen wielder, the discussion is obviously only useful assuming equal skill. There are segments of the playerbase which are so incompetent that I could probably kill them with machine guns. That doesn't mean MGs aren't bad.

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Truth.

[Riktor Voshek]

I don't disagree with the conclusion of the OP that trying out a lower threshold and a higher dissipation would be interesting, but I did want to say that those decisions do exist in the game at the moment if your weapons and weapon groups are set up such that you're able to make them.

I have a Catapult with 2 Large Lasers, 2 Medium Lasers and 2 SRM6. I can't fire all of those in a fight very often before overheating, but my decisions are more complex than "do I stay or run while I wait until I can fire them all again?" It feels more like a priority process that takes heat into account along with range to target and how easy it's going to be to hit with the different weapon systems. In other words, given I'm limited by heat, which weapon system am I best off firing?

- If the target is at point blank range and fairly slow, I'll prioritise the SRM's and spend any left over heat on the lasers.
- If I'm unlikely to hit with the SRM's, I'll switch priority to the LargeLs and fill in with the MedLs if I have any heat left over.
- If I'm really screwed on heat, I might just use the MedLs instead of the LargeLs as I know they give better damage per heat.
- And obviously out to longer ranges I'll just be using the LargeLs.

(that's the theory anyway; I normally end up pushing all the buttons and overheating )

Anyway, my point is that you can already play the game making the kind of decisions the OP describes, and I'm not convinced that just changing the heat system would be enough to make people play that way. Fundamantally, it's always going to be easier (and therefore more efficient for more people more of the time) to boat lots of similar weapons and simple make the "fire or not" decision instead of anything more complex.

As an aside, I wonder what the average number of weapon groups set up on a mech is? I'd like to think it was two or three, but suspect it's one.

Edited by Riktor Voshek, 14 December 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[Naeron66]

zverofaust, on 13 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

There's an important distinction between Volume and Frequency of fire, and I feel MWO's current heat system is skewed heavily towards limitations on Frequency and not Volume, and that this is uncharacteristic of Mechwarrior game design.

Hardpoints and tonnage already limit Volume of Fire. For the higher heat weapons Heat also limits volume of fire.

And you are wrong, the ability to deliver maximum alpha strikes has always been a characteristic of Mechwarrior.

[Joseph Mallan]

Naeron very few mechs could perform an Alpha strike (fire all weapons) without generating a lot of heat. The Thug is a perfect example of a Mech designed to Alpha strike constantly.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 December 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[Naeron66]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 December 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Naeron very few mechs could perform an Alpha strike (fire all weapons) without generating a lot of heat. The Thug is a perfect example of a Mech designed to Alpha strike constantly.

They could if customised for alpha at a certain range. And in MWO an alpha does generate a lot of heat unless using mainly shorter range, low heat weapons (with lower damage).

MWO is exactly the same, you can make your build for alpha at a given range, or you can mix longer and shorter range weapons together. You can build for max alpha strikes then a cooldown period or you can build for fewer alphas but sustained fire from some of your weapon groups, This is just as it has always been.

Edited by Naeron66, 14 December 2012 - 06:42 AM.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Frequency and volume of weapons fire are one in the same.

The heat mechanics work exactly as you are requesting. The onus is on you, the pilot, to take advantage of that system and build a mech that functions in that manner.

[Joseph Mallan]

Naeron66, on 14 December 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

They could if customised for alpha at a certain range. And in MWO an alpha does generate a lot of heat unless using mainly shorter range, low heat weapons (with lower damage).

MWO is exactly the same, you can make your build for alpha at a given range, or you can mix longer and shorter range weapons together. You can build for max alpha strikes then a cooldown period or you can build for fewer alphas but sustained fire from some of your weapon groups, This is just as it has always been.

Customized and Canon are two different beasts. There are as i said very few mechs that were created to alpha every turn. Now My personal mechs for my table were a different breed of monster. Alpha and selective fife are not the same thing. But I do get what you are saying. The 9M should be able to sustain a 3-2 ERPPC rate of fire for an entire game. it would be a bit hot, but never shut down.

[thenightisdark]

Riktor Voshek, on 14 December 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I don't disagree with the conclusion of the OP that trying out a lower threshold and a higher dissipation would be interesting, but I did want to say that those decisions do exist in the game at the moment if your weapons and weapon groups are set up such that you're able to make them.

I have a Catapult with 2 Large Lasers, 2 Medium Lasers and 2 SRM6. I can't fire all of those in a fight very often before overheating, but my decisions are more complex than "do I stay or run while I wait until I can fire them all again?" It feels more like a priority process that takes heat into account along with range to target and how easy it's going to be to hit with the different weapon systems. In other words, given I'm limited by heat, which weapon system am I best off firing?

- If the target is at point blank range and fairly slow, I'll prioritise the SRM's and spend any left over heat on the lasers.
- If I'm unlikely to hit with the SRM's, I'll switch priority to the LargeLs and fill in with the MedLs if I have any heat left over.
- If I'm really screwed on heat, I might just use the MedLs instead of the LargeLs as I know they give better damage per heat.
- And obviously out to longer ranges I'll just be using the LargeLs.

(that's the theory anyway; I normally end up pushing all the buttons and overheating )

Anyway, my point is that you can already play the game making the kind of decisions the OP describes, and I'm not convinced that just changing the heat system would be enough to make people play that way. Fundamantally, it's always going to be easier (and therefore more efficient for more people more of the time) to boat lots of similar weapons and simple make the "fire or not" decision instead of anything more complex.

As an aside, I wonder what the average number of weapon groups set up on a mech is? I'd like to think it was two or three, but suspect it's one.

Riktor Voshek, on 14 December 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

(that's the theory anyway; I normally end up pushing all the buttons and overheating )

I like the OP suggestion. It is make it so there is more over heating if you push all the buttons. Make people do what you are talking about in the quoted post.

Make heat more of a challenge.

[QContinuum]

Your idea is a good concept but I myself generally have to watch the heat and since you see mechs shut down all the time then there must be already some heat managment at work there already. So i'm not really seeing this issue. What you looking for in the table top game isn't the same as a live action simulation. Not so easy to change your weapon groups on the fly during a fight for starters. Most good players will builds mechs that dish out as much damaage as possible. If you are shut down then you aren't dishing out the damage. I won't say the current system is perfect but i think it has a good start and we just have to wait and see where it goes.