1329 replies to this topic

[Vulpesveritas]

Canzara, on 24 May 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

LOL I'm a fanboy because you don't like what I said?
This is my first intel CPU in almost 10 years. If thats how you would describe a fanboy, while OKILY DOKILY.
BD is selling well because some people would rather pay 50 bucks less for a subpar product, then to get thier money's worth. I'm not one of them.
A Fanboy LMAO thats soooo hilarious.
I HOPE that AMD starts to compete again, but right now, they are not and I have very little hope at this point since they're recent announcements on CPU roadmap.

Oh ya, are you aware of Intels overclocking warranty?
Lets see AMD offer that and then come talk to me about how long they last in comparison.

Again, don't take it so personally, I'm not brand loyal to ANYONE...I buy whats best for the money at the time and right now the i5 is the best price performance you can get HANDS DOWN.

FX-4170 vs i5 (quad - quad) [color="#ffa504"]http://compare-proce...-i5-2500k/3542/[/color] (25% faster Intel, 50% more expensive Intel CPU [$70] vs AMD, $80-90 more expensive system Intel vs AMD CPU)
FX-8120 vs i5 (value - value) [color="#ffa504"]http://compare-proce...-i5-2500k/4373/[/color] (AMD 5% faster performance vs Intel, Intel 15% faster gaming vs AMD, Intel 33% more expensive [$50] vs AMD, $60-70 more expensive system Intel vs AMD CPU.)

Math good sir, math. The i5 is the best gaming performance within a resonable value you can get, but AMD still has about a 25% price versus performance lead here according to the math. And let's not forget, in most real world scenarios, most people won't see a single difference between newer CPUs, unless they're obsessively heavy multitasking, in which case AMD has a lead due to it's larger core count.

And yes, I know of Intel's overclocking warranty. too bad all their processors which can overclock are $200+, when that extra $50+ warranty could go to a better graphics card instead, which would get better frame rates in modern games versus the faster CPU anyhow.
And does AMD even have the money to offer such a warranty? Let's not forget this;

Intel puts more money each year into R&D alone than AMD made in the entirety of last year. Kinda makes you wonder how AMD keeps up as well as it does.
- In its last fiscal year, Intel spent $6.6 billion on research and development. (2010) http://seekingalpha....-core-portfolio

Also, I apolagize for the using the term fanboy (which I had already edited out prior to your posting), however your seeming unwillingness to consider the percentages, or even try to figure the percentages on your own would suggest an inability to use simple logic. Value is a basis of percentages. Not a mystical figure that just one thing gets.

And I actually disagree, because in my opinion (and by percentages) the FX-8150 is not a good value, unlike it's next steps down, the FX-8120, 6200, and 4170.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 24 May 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[Canzara]

But if their product is so superior, then the companies worth shouldn't even enter the picture?
Stop trying to be self important and just accept the facts.
Intel is better right now.
Nothing wrong with AMD if its what you want and can afford, but don't try to say its superior. If you would rather spend 20$ less for a 10% decrease in performance, well OK! I think it seems rather absurd and silly, but thats just IMO.

For EVERYONE.
DONT EVER TAKE SOME JOKER ON A FORUM AT FACE VALUE. ME OR THIS OTHER GUY.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK ON YOUR PURCHASES.
If you really need advice, a gaming forum is not the place to get it, hell if gamers knew anything about computers, alienware wouldn't exist, they would have gone broke years ago. Try a tech/hardware forum for GOOD advice.

No need to apologize, honestly I thought it was hillarious. I don't think I've ever been called a fanboy before.

Also, I don't take this personally and I hope you aren't either. Differences of opinion are healthy.

One more thing. Its not as cut and dry as cpu speeds either.
For example, have you seen the difference between AMD's AHCI capabilities and Intels?
You really should, AMD's AHCI drivers absolutely STINK!
Not to mention, intels far superior memory controller, as well as onboard graphics in the cpu.
Your not just paying for the processor, your paying for a few things.
The overclocking warranty alone. Pay them 25 bucks and then extreme overclock till it dies, they send you a new one free. Thats awesome and certainly worth a few bucks extra!

Edited by Canzara, 24 May 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Canzara, on 24 May 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

But if their product is so superior, then the companies worth shouldn't even enter the picture?
Stop trying to be self important and just accept the facts.
Intel is better right now.
Nothing wrong with AMD if its what you want and can afford, but don't try to say its superior. If you would rather spend 20$ less for a 10% decrease in performance, well OK! I think it seems rather absurd and silly, but thats just IMO.

For EVERYONE.
DONT EVER TAKE SOME JOKER ON A FORUM AT FACE VALUE. ME OR THIS OTHER GUY.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK ON YOUR PURCHASES.
If you really need advice, a gaming forum is not the place to get it, hell if gamers knew anything about computers, alienware wouldn't exist, they would have gone broke years ago. Try a tech/hardware forum for GOOD advice.

Which I and Barberic Soul for example are on TPU... but that's besides the point.
Nothing is wrong with either Intel or AMD, however for gaming until you get a top of the line GPU you're still better off going for value on your CPU for best results in any modern games. After you have say a Radeon HD 7970 or GTX 670 / 680, and you still have more money you're looking to spend, sure the next thing is to step up to an i5, and after that probably an SSD is in order. However, AMD still has a better price versus performance ratio and therefore is still a better value. End of story. This is what I've found via benchmarks, listed prices at e-tailors such as Newegg, and general logic and math. Reviews are important too. Which is why I know about as much as I do. Because I constantly read them. Intel does make superior CPUs, however they are priced higher than they perform versus most AMD CPUs.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 24 May 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Canzara]

I would have agreed with you a year ago, but I don't right now.
Sometimes in this world you actually do get what you pay for.

[Vulpesveritas]

Canzara, on 24 May 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

I would have agreed with you a year ago, but I don't right now.
Sometimes in this world you actually do get what you pay for.

Well lets just agree to disagree and I'll let the math speak for me for now then. So what'd you think of the rest of the post other than your disagreeing with the bit on AMD and Intel?

Canzara, on 24 May 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

One more thing. Its not as cut and dry as cpu speeds either.
For example, have you seen the difference between AMD's AHCI capabilities and Intels?
You really should, AMD's AHCI drivers absolutely STINK!
Not to mention, intels far superior memory controller, as well as onboard graphics in the cpu.
Your not just paying for the processor, your paying for a few things.
The overclocking warranty alone. Pay them 25 bucks and then extreme overclock till it dies, they send you a new one free. Thats awesome and certainly worth a few bucks extra!

"Onboard graphics on CPU"... Dude.. have you even looked at Llano and Trinity?... Which have up to multiple times the GPU performance versus Intel HD graphics 3000/4000? The New HD 4000 GPU on the IB i5s and i7s barely manages to compete with the A4's Radeon HD 7430g... let alone any of the faster APUs... though Intel kills them on the CPU end, there is still price to consider.
And the overclocking warranty, Intel can offer that because they're so excessivly rich and that not many people do that, AMD on the other hand probably can't afford to do such... not to mention, not many people do such an extreme overclock, even those who do OC...
And umm... seriously you're pulling AHCI?.. With how many more SATA interface links AMD boards have versus mainstream Intel offerings? The drivers might not be the best but they work.
And the memory controller... 1866mhz controller versus needing XMP with Intel...

Anyhow. Let's just agree to disagree and remain civil.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 24 May 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Canzara]

It was very informative and well written.
Thanks for taking the time and effort I'm sure there are many who will need the information you've supplied here.

[cipher]

Vulpesveritas, on 24 May 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

"Onboard graphics on CPU"... Dude.. have you even looked at Llano and Trinity?

I know, lol, that was funny! I think AMD had that first And we're all gamers here so why the heck would anyone care about integrated graphics?

With that said I've been an Intel fanboy ever since the Core 2 series. And I was an AMD fanboy during the years of the K7 CPUs (original Athlon). I even liked the Athlon 64 FX too (K8). So I've been all over the board.

In the end though, like the OP said, it really doesn't matter for the majority of people visiting this thread for advice on building/buying a PC. All they need to know is that for the absolute high-end CPUs you want to look at Intel ($500-$1,000 or higher), for the low-end value market you look at AMD (under $100), and for everything in between it doesn't matter much.

Canzara, on 24 May 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

The overclocking warranty alone. Pay them 25 bucks and then extreme overclock till it dies, they send you a new one free. Thats awesome and certainly worth a few bucks extra!

You might want to take a look at the target audience of this thread. For people seeking hardware advice at this level they're not going to be "extreme overclock till it dies" kind of people. /facepalm

Edited by cipher, 24 May 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Canzara]

And if your recommending your friends buy an AMD CPU at this point, I can only feel sorry for them. But I guess if its on forums, who cares huh?

And why wouldn't they overclock if they can?
I started out as just a gamer, I bought a pc to game. A short time later I realized I enjoy hardware almost as much as I enjoy gaming...overclocking soon followed. I'm sure I'm not an exception, but this would be more and more common as time passes.
Have some insight!

Edited by Canzara, 24 May 2012 - 11:04 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Just a couple comments

Ram- I think the more important thing to mention is that you don't need crazy ram speeds. IIRC there is virtually no improvement over ddr3 1600. The step up from ddr3 1333 is worthwhile as its very cheap and at least a couple percent improvement in most things. Buying ram in pairs should go without saying (Though there were a few triple channel boards awhile back.)

SSD- Yes SSDs are different. However I think the most important thing is to have a SSD of any type. I had a buddy who was holding off SSDs because of reading guides like that and thought he needed the ultimate fastest SSD out there. Those are a lot of money per GB. I'd advise people to get even the cheapest slow ones if they can't swing the high end drives. They are so much faster than hard drives that Its night and day difference. Worry about the details later. Pretty much if its a major maker and has trim support you should be good to go.

CPU- I can't believe we're talking about integrated GPUs for gaming. They still nowhere powerful enough to be seriously considered for a gaming machine. AMD has some great value cpus for sure, but it really depends on the load you are putting on them. The links you posted are poor indicators of real world performance. 3d mark for example overvalues mutli-core cpus is relation to their real world performance. Take the fx-8150 review for example on anandtech http://www.anandtech...fx8150-tested/8 It is beat by a i5-2400 intel chip in most situations and the i5-2400 is cheaper. This is a very typical performance level of chip to buy for a gaming rig. The issue is that AMD relies on lots of cores to help with performance and once you get to mid-range CPUs intel tends to be better performance/dollar in largely single threaded tasks mid-to high end. Throw other tasks in there and the value proposition changes. AMD is better at video encoding for example, or other workloads that can be highly threaded. Its just I would expect this to be focused on gaming.

[Canzara]

nobody said **** about gaming with integrated gpu's. That is only someone trying to be a hero and twisting my words.
I only said that its there and its part of the cost your paying for. Not that it was recommended for gaming. But thanks for coming out genius!

[Jeremiah Rose2]

Never read more Truth good.

Fight all asininity!

[TheRulesLawyer]

Canzara, on 24 May 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

nobody said **** about gaming with integrated gpu's. That is only someone trying to be a hero and twisting my words.
I only said that its there and its part of the cost your paying for. Not that it was recommended for gaming. But thanks for coming out genius!

Yikes. Did someone get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

[cipher]

Canzara, on 24 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

And if your recommending your friends buy an AMD CPU at this point, I can only feel sorry for them.

When someone's on a very tight budget there's nothing wrong with that sort of recommendation. I usually recommend Intel CPUs by default, then AMD if my build suggestions are too pricey for them.

[Vulpesveritas]

@Theruleslawyer

The thing is that in a relatively cut and clean system that AMD doesn't have as much of an advantage, with multitasking, bloatware, and an antivirus the extra cores make real world usage much easier. Seeing as ive been able to push my Phenom II x4 to full usage with Google Chrome + mcafee + nettalk + VLC media player, i would say that things are fairly balanced in a PC for a normal conser. Then there's the FX-4170 which is 75% as fast as an i5-2500k while the i5 costs 50% more. Not that bad of a deal if you ask me, at least for gaming, as that's nearly a $100 difference which can go instead to a better graphics card in most situations.

RAM wise I'll add that as myth 16 tonight when I get on my PC.

SSD wise, I wanted to more point out that there are things to consider, and there are significant differences between them you should consider when buying one.

[Canzara]

TheRulesLawyer, on 24 May 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Yikes. Did someone get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

I don't like being attacked, which I was. I generally respond to that by attacking back.
My frustration was more directed at the moron that felt the need to be an ignorant *******, then it was at you. Sorry that wasn't more clear.
He had no insight, or even common sense for that matter, sounds like those investors who didn't do their homework on Facebook and are now suing for their own lack of common sense...Those kinds of things frustrate me. We live in a society where people would rather lie to themselves and twist other peoples words to join the club, then to use their brains. I see that as a very sad and frustrating thing. Sort of like people who only quote part of things and then it removes context and doesn't make much sense.
But then I'm not a child either. My 15 year old does the same kinds of things. I make the mistake of giving more credit to people online then I should. If its not spelled out directly exactly perfectly, they'll change it to their own convenience.

Edited by Canzara, 24 May 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

@Canzara: so someone who spends 2-4 hours a day reading hardware reviews and has been building PCs for 13 years and is going to college with shooting for a career in microprocessor design is ignorant? I didn't know that.

Oh wait I'm not, I just use hard numbers instead of perceptive values.


By the way, learn to use logic please. Your arguments will be better then.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 26 May 2012 - 10:59 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Building a computer, is easy.. building a computer well, tuning it, and understanding what your doing not so much. Its a rare soul that can go from cash to playing a game with zero experience in the build process, who isn't inclined to do some reading, investigation and personal investment in doing it right. Any chimp can swing a hammer, not many can build a house. That said, its admittedly not hard for an experienced person to teach a rookie.

A personal favorite.. the end build screw shake test (that rookies usually skip).. nothing make my day more than "I heard a sizzling sound then smelled something funny" I shake the case... out fall's a loose screw, mildly discolored, or even a piece of metallic flashing that wasn't removed.

That will be $120 please...plus the price of the new components. A respondent look of dismay.

Most of what you said otherwise I'd say was pretty true and current.

Just would put a disclaimer up there, so people don't fry their parts, or worse electrocute themselves on the first boot attempt.

[Canzara]

Vulpesveritas, on 24 May 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

@Canzara: so someone who spends 2-4 hours a day reading hardware reviews and has been building PCs for 13 years and is going to college with shooting for a career in microprocessor design is ignorant? I didn't know that.

Oh wait I'm not, I just use hard numbers instead of perceptive values.


By the way, learn to use logic please. Your arguments will be better then.

I didn't mean ignorant in that way. (sorry better spell this out, ignorant also means rude), and I WAS NOT speaking of you. You didn't attack me in any way, well except the fanboy thing, but I laughed at that.
Your trying to attack me now though, based on YOUR misunderstanding of who I was speaking about.
Is that your idea of logic?
Raises the question, was it your intent to attack me and I missed it?
Cause I thought you were for the most being pretty rational. Even when I baited you a bit, you sucked it up like a big boy and were pretty rational. I was impressed for a 19 year old!

Edited by Canzara, 24 May 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

@canzaraokay i thought that was directed at me and in misunderstanding reacted defensively. I apologize.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 24 May 2012 - 09:58 PM.

[Canzara]

No worries man, I knew that was the case.
You did however misunderstand my point on the integrated graphics, which is probably why you made the assumption you did, so its as much my fault for not wording myself more carefully. My fingers sometimes don't quite keep up with my brain